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As a former academic gone mercenary, I love that programmers of all skill levels can get into organization, language and specification through Python. It's a w

As a former academic gone mercenary, I love that programmers of all skill levels can get into organization, language and specification through Python. It's a wonderful gateway to learning, and in this case, it seems to have done exactly what Python was specified to do! For my own projects, I've used pretty much all the fad languages from BASIC to Pascal to C. I've used industry-adopted languages like Tcl, Java and Perl. I've experimented with Lisp and Erlang. After all is said and done, I like Python/Cython/C. It gives me the option to use a glue language for the Windows programming I've done, which is perfect. It gives me a compiled (albeit ctypes-restricted) subset language for writing hashing/storage/whatever functions. It gives me a super-awesome library set that comes built-in. I know it'll go away someday, but I'm glad to have worked in Python for as long as I have.

timwiseman 17y ago
I know it'll go away someday, Aside from the obvious that just about everything will go away someday, is there a reason you believe this? From my vantage point (albiet limited) python looks like it has staying power. It is easy to use, effecient enough (and with unladen swallow in development it may get a lot more effecient soon), and currently seems to be gaining ground instead of losing. Eventually I am sure that it and any other language you can possibly name will get supplanted, but I am not aware of any particular reason to expect that any time remotely soon.
- electronslave 17y ago
  From my vantage point I might have dated myself above by mentioning Tcl and Pascal, but I've been programming for a few decades. Without ruining the cosmic punchline: all things go away surprisingly fast.
- kragen 17y ago
  is there a reason you believe this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anicca http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anicca python looks like it has staying power So did the Roman Empire, JOVIAL, FORTH, and PL/1.
  - timwiseman 17y ago
    Heh, first to be clear, I agree that very few things are truly permanent. In fact, I said that in my original question. What I said is that I do not think Python will be going away any time soon, and your examples play nicely into that theme. The Roman Empire lasted for many centuries, Jovial, Forth, and PL/1 all had very long runs. In fact, they are all still used in some limited capacities today.
aristus 17y ago
Python is remarkable for having a dozen or so major language features disallowed by fiat (removal of the GIL, unrestricted anonymous functions, TCO, braces) but still being extremely powerful, expressive, and used by programmers of all skill levels. It's difficult to be obscure in Python. Yet if I really need to do something jinky like remapping an outside library's methods, I can do it with a few lines of slightly-uglier code. That's a very hard balance to make. Good design involves a lot of "no". I don't think languages are an exception.
- chromatic 17y ago
  > It's difficult to be obscure in Python. It's occasionally difficult to be obscure with Python syntax. It's not at all difficult to be obscure with anything in Python above that level. Even then, if you do weird things with metaclasses or decorators, it's easy to be obscure with Python.
  - blasdel 17y ago
    Decorators are an odd case -- I find that they make code dramatically clearer at the call-site, but that the decorator definitions get hairy fast (and get worse the more life-saving they are). They ended up being one of the best macro systems ever devised (they're applied at compile-time!).
    - njharman 17y ago
      > they're applied at compile-time! I seriously don't under stand that statement. Decorators are callables that return callables, nothing else, nothing special. Decorator Syntax is just sugar. Decorators can be applied any time including runtime. I'm not even sure what you mean by "compile time" in regards to Python, import time?
      - blasdel 17y ago
        They're applied at parse-time, and they completely mask the def that they are applied to. Yes, the function being used as a decorator could just as easily be called at runtime, and that does break the similarity to macros somewhat.
hristov 17y ago
You must be old. Basic hasn't been a fad since the 80s.
- gaius 17y ago
  I assume he means VB(.NET).
  - electronslave 17y ago
    Now that this conversation is closed up, I'll date myself further. I do not mean Visual Basic (nor Victoria Bitter.)
- abdulhaq 17y ago
  BASIC was never a 'fad' - it was frequently all you had (other than machine code). Remember, no internet, no CDs, even no modems for the vast unwashed such as myself - just a tape deck, 16K ROM and a TV. The first language where I got to choose it was Lisp for the Sinclair QL, ~ 1985.
- PonyGumbo 17y ago
  You must have an interesting definition of 'old'.

timwiseman 17y ago

I know it'll go away someday, Aside from the obvious that just about everything will go away someday, is there a reason you believe this? From my vantage point (albiet limited) python looks like it has staying power. It is easy to use, effecient enough (and with unladen swallow in development it may get a lot more effecient soon), and currently seems to be gaining ground instead of losing. Eventually I am sure that it and any other language you can possibly name will get supplanted, but I am not aware of any particular reason to expect that any time remotely soon.

electronslave 17y ago
From my vantage point I might have dated myself above by mentioning Tcl and Pascal, but I've been programming for a few decades. Without ruining the cosmic punchline: all things go away surprisingly fast.
kragen 17y ago
is there a reason you believe this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anicca http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anicca python looks like it has staying power So did the Roman Empire, JOVIAL, FORTH, and PL/1.
- timwiseman 17y ago
  Heh, first to be clear, I agree that very few things are truly permanent. In fact, I said that in my original question. What I said is that I do not think Python will be going away any time soon, and your examples play nicely into that theme. The Roman Empire lasted for many centuries, Jovial, Forth, and PL/1 all had very long runs. In fact, they are all still used in some limited capacities today.

aristus 17y ago

Python is remarkable for having a dozen or so major language features disallowed by fiat (removal of the GIL, unrestricted anonymous functions, TCO, braces) but still being extremely powerful, expressive, and used by programmers of all skill levels. It's difficult to be obscure in Python. Yet if I really need to do something jinky like remapping an outside library's methods, I can do it with a few lines of slightly-uglier code. That's a very hard balance to make. Good design involves a lot of "no". I don't think languages are an exception.

chromatic 17y ago
> It's difficult to be obscure in Python. It's occasionally difficult to be obscure with Python syntax. It's not at all difficult to be obscure with anything in Python above that level. Even then, if you do weird things with metaclasses or decorators, it's easy to be obscure with Python.
- blasdel 17y ago
  Decorators are an odd case -- I find that they make code dramatically clearer at the call-site, but that the decorator definitions get hairy fast (and get worse the more life-saving they are). They ended up being one of the best macro systems ever devised (they're applied at compile-time!).
  - njharman 17y ago
    > they're applied at compile-time! I seriously don't under stand that statement. Decorators are callables that return callables, nothing else, nothing special. Decorator Syntax is just sugar. Decorators can be applied any time including runtime. I'm not even sure what you mean by "compile time" in regards to Python, import time?
    - blasdel 17y ago
      They're applied at parse-time, and they completely mask the def that they are applied to. Yes, the function being used as a decorator could just as easily be called at runtime, and that does break the similarity to macros somewhat.

hristov 17y ago

You must be old. Basic hasn't been a fad since the 80s.

gaius 17y ago
I assume he means VB(.NET).
- electronslave 17y ago
  Now that this conversation is closed up, I'll date myself further. I do not mean Visual Basic (nor Victoria Bitter.)
abdulhaq 17y ago
BASIC was never a 'fad' - it was frequently all you had (other than machine code). Remember, no internet, no CDs, even no modems for the vast unwashed such as myself - just a tape deck, 16K ROM and a TV. The first language where I got to choose it was Lisp for the Sinclair QL, ~ 1985.
PonyGumbo 17y ago
You must have an interesting definition of 'old'.