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Since when did Iran and Turkey become enemies?

by parham 12y ago

waps 12y ago
Different religions. Turkey is "sunni"/secular. Iran is Shi'a/secular. (but the other way round, Turkey's population is "moderately" sunni muslim, the state is aggresively secular. Iran, the population, I think is fair to say, is secular, the state is aggresively Shi'a muslim). The sunnis are the ones that are organising things like ISIS, and the religious cleansings ISIS is doing. Problem is that one of the values of islam is to militarily dominate, so aside from Lebanon (and formerly Iraq), there is no example of a state with powre sharing. Even in Lebanon there is only power sharing between Christians and muslims, not between different sects of muslims. (the difference being that Christians don't see the need to exterminate muslims (just convert them, eventually), nor do muslims want to exterminate Christians, just dominate them (talking about the values of the religions here). Sunni's do want to exterminate Shi'as and vice-versa. To put it bluntly: sharia is pretty clear on the need to kill any muslim who is not the same sect as you are. But Christians/Jews can get the choice dhimma or death. So Lebanon will not blow up as easily as Iraq will)
- nl 12y ago
  Turkey is probably about as strong an opponent of ISIS as there is in the middle east. Edit: the parent comment was edited while I was writing that. There is a lot I disagree with now, bit the biggest factual problem is the idea that Lebanon "won't blow up like Iraq" seems to ignore 2 decades of civil war in Lebanon.
  - waps 12y ago
    Not really. Let's say that Erdogan and ISIS agree on goals, absolutely not on means, and Erdogan stands to lose a LOT if ISIS doesn't back down. They are not enemies, even if you have a point that they're absolutely not friends either. You're right of course that Lebanon hasn't been very stable.
    - nl 12y ago
      You think Erdogan wants an Wahhabist caliphate centered in Bagdad that claims parts of Turkey? Not likely! I'm trying to imagine what goals they share? I guess Turkey probably doesn't want an Iranian-dominated Iraq (and nor does ISIS of course!), but Turkey can probably accept that to some degree provided Iraqi Kurdistan remains autonomous and provides a buffer zone. Beyond that I can't see anything they really have in common.
      - waps 12y ago
        Of course not. I think he wants the ottoman empire back. He wants a non-wahhabist (but still quite strict) caliphate centered in constantinople. Most of all he wants the basic property of the caliphate : a theocracy. He has, after, said exactly that. Cost him votes, but not enough. As I said, he's quite sympathetic with what they're doing, he's doing the same. He's just behaving like any Ottoman vasal did a mere 100 years ago. He agrees with the need for a caliphate, probably even with the method. He just disagrees on the caliph and the capital. Like any ottoman vasal, tough, he sees them as competition as well as potential allies.
- emilsedgh 12y ago
  Iran is Shi'a/secular Islamic Republic of Iran is a theocracy.
  - yen223 12y ago
    Bush was republican, doesn't mean all Americans were right-wing.
    - waps 12y ago
      Exactly the distinction I wanted to make. Iran is a theocracy, with a population that has at least a significant secular fraction.
      - politician 12y ago
        Is your purpose in drawing this distinction to claim that the secular tendencies of the population of Iran is an effective counterweight to the ambitions of its theocracy?
        scaramanga 12y ago
        US ambitions keep the theocracy powerful. Since they overthrew the US backed dictator which had overthrown the secular, progressive democratically elected government of Mossadegh. Every time the US threatens Iran or imposes sanctions, or funds and arms a terrible dictator in Iraq so he can bomb Iranian cities and drop poison gas on them killing hundreds of thousands of people. The theocracy steps up to the plate the only force powerful enough to stand up to the US. Any more liberal voices get drowned out by the need for security from the US and its interests.
nl 12y ago
Turkey is a NATO member. Additionally, Iran supports Assad in Syria while Turkey generally supports (some of) the rebels. Turkey is generally seen as the leader of the secular Islamic world, while Iran is seen as the leader Shia Islam. While they aren't shooting enemies they aren't exactly allies either. More interestingly, the chart shows Turkey and Iraq as enemies, while in fact Turkey and Iraqi Kurdistan have recently become quite close allies (!!) based on a oil and trade[1][2]. [1] http://online.wsj.com/articles/conflict-shows-new-closer-turk-iraqi-kurdish-ties-1402689691 http://online.wsj.com/articles/conflict-shows-new-closer-tur... [2] http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/turkeys-changing-relations-with-iraq-kurdistan-up-baghdad-down http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/turk...
scaramanga 12y ago
Iran and Turkey became enemies when Iran overthrew the brutal dictatorship of the Shah. Same time the US switched from being pro- the Iranian nuclear program to being anti-. Highly surprising! Nah, not really.

Since when did Iran and Turkey become enemies?

by parham 12y ago

Since when did Iran and Turkey become enemies?

waps 12y ago

Different religions. Turkey is "sunni"/secular. Iran is Shi'a/secular. (but the other way round, Turkey's population is "moderately" sunni muslim, the state is aggresively secular. Iran, the population, I think is fair to say, is secular, the state is aggresively Shi'a muslim). The sunnis are the ones that are organising things like ISIS, and the religious cleansings ISIS is doing. Problem is that one of the values of islam is to militarily dominate, so aside from Lebanon (and formerly Iraq), there is no example of a state with powre sharing. Even in Lebanon there is only power sharing between Christians and muslims, not between different sects of muslims. (the difference being that Christians don't see the need to exterminate muslims (just convert them, eventually), nor do muslims want to exterminate Christians, just dominate them (talking about the values of the religions here). Sunni's do want to exterminate Shi'as and vice-versa. To put it bluntly: sharia is pretty clear on the need to kill any muslim who is not the same sect as you are. But Christians/Jews can get the choice dhimma or death. So Lebanon will not blow up as easily as Iraq will)

nl 12y ago
Turkey is probably about as strong an opponent of ISIS as there is in the middle east. Edit: the parent comment was edited while I was writing that. There is a lot I disagree with now, bit the biggest factual problem is the idea that Lebanon "won't blow up like Iraq" seems to ignore 2 decades of civil war in Lebanon.
- waps 12y ago
  Not really. Let's say that Erdogan and ISIS agree on goals, absolutely not on means, and Erdogan stands to lose a LOT if ISIS doesn't back down. They are not enemies, even if you have a point that they're absolutely not friends either. You're right of course that Lebanon hasn't been very stable.
  - nl 12y ago
    You think Erdogan wants an Wahhabist caliphate centered in Bagdad that claims parts of Turkey? Not likely! I'm trying to imagine what goals they share? I guess Turkey probably doesn't want an Iranian-dominated Iraq (and nor does ISIS of course!), but Turkey can probably accept that to some degree provided Iraqi Kurdistan remains autonomous and provides a buffer zone. Beyond that I can't see anything they really have in common.
    - waps 12y ago
      Of course not. I think he wants the ottoman empire back. He wants a non-wahhabist (but still quite strict) caliphate centered in constantinople. Most of all he wants the basic property of the caliphate : a theocracy. He has, after, said exactly that. Cost him votes, but not enough. As I said, he's quite sympathetic with what they're doing, he's doing the same. He's just behaving like any Ottoman vasal did a mere 100 years ago. He agrees with the need for a caliphate, probably even with the method. He just disagrees on the caliph and the capital. Like any ottoman vasal, tough, he sees them as competition as well as potential allies.
emilsedgh 12y ago
Iran is Shi'a/secular Islamic Republic of Iran is a theocracy.
- yen223 12y ago
  Bush was republican, doesn't mean all Americans were right-wing.
  - waps 12y ago
    Exactly the distinction I wanted to make. Iran is a theocracy, with a population that has at least a significant secular fraction.
    - politician 12y ago
      Is your purpose in drawing this distinction to claim that the secular tendencies of the population of Iran is an effective counterweight to the ambitions of its theocracy?
      - scaramanga 12y ago
        US ambitions keep the theocracy powerful. Since they overthrew the US backed dictator which had overthrown the secular, progressive democratically elected government of Mossadegh. Every time the US threatens Iran or imposes sanctions, or funds and arms a terrible dictator in Iraq so he can bomb Iranian cities and drop poison gas on them killing hundreds of thousands of people. The theocracy steps up to the plate the only force powerful enough to stand up to the US. Any more liberal voices get drowned out by the need for security from the US and its interests.

nl 12y ago

Turkey is a NATO member. Additionally, Iran supports Assad in Syria while Turkey generally supports (some of) the rebels. Turkey is generally seen as the leader of the secular Islamic world, while Iran is seen as the leader Shia Islam. While they aren't shooting enemies they aren't exactly allies either. More interestingly, the chart shows Turkey and Iraq as enemies, while in fact Turkey and Iraqi Kurdistan have recently become quite close allies (!!) based on a oil and trade[1][2]. [1] http://online.wsj.com/articles/conflict-shows-new-closer-turk-iraqi-kurdish-ties-1402689691 http://online.wsj.com/articles/conflict-shows-new-closer-tur... [2] http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/turkeys-changing-relations-with-iraq-kurdistan-up-baghdad-down http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/turk...

scaramanga 12y ago

Iran and Turkey became enemies when Iran overthrew the brutal dictatorship of the Shah. Same time the US switched from being pro- the Iranian nuclear program to being anti-. Highly surprising! Nah, not really.