18 ms·

> He's attempting to analyze systemic changes in society accurately. s/He/She

pooper 12y ago
We can probably replace many instances of (s)he or he/she with a singular they. As the Wikipedia article says[1], this is not a recent phenomenon. If using he in a gender-neutral way or in gender ambiguous situations is somehow not politically correct, we should use the word they to replace all instances of he/she or (s)he or he or she where the gender is not important. This is probably the case in over half of our usage of he/she or (s)he or he or she. Instead of: Barack Obama is the current president of the United States. He was born in 1961. Say: Barack Obama is the current president of the United States. They were born in 1961. Fight the madness of people getting mad over gender of pronouns with a greater degree of madness. It is the only way. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
- ams6110 12y ago
  GP was point out that Diamond's first name is Rebecca, so "she" is almost certainly the correct pronoun in this case.
  - gaius 12y ago
    If I heard someone referred to as "Diamond" in this context, I'd immediately assume the very famous author Jared Diamond.
    - nostrademons 12y ago
      Jared Diamond was my first thought as well, but this is a very good example of why it's important to RTFA.
- graeme 12y ago
  I feel like you're making a good argument but have chosen a singularly poor example. Use of "they" is most justified when the gender is unknown. Barack Obama is a very known male. At some point, we may use "they" for everyone, even if known. But at present, it's not accepted even for cases when gender is unknown. It's likely better to argue for its usage in unknown cases first before making a case for its usage even when gender is known. The latter is a far more radical proposition. (I use "they" when gender is unknown".)
  - A_COMPUTER 12y ago
    Consider that like Chelsea Manning, at some point in the future Barack Obama may announce she has always been a woman. Also like Chelsea Manning, at that point you would be obligated to alter all past and present references to Barack Obama as "she," or else be guilty of a hateful and cruel misgendering slur. So as a matter of practicality it's probably easier just to use the singular-they in every case so you are being respectful. On the other hand, it still wouldn't be considerate to leave it at "they" if Barack Obama had clearly stated her preferred pronouns, so you might have to change it anyway so now I am not actually sure what advice to give.
    - davidtanner 12y ago
      You sound very unlike someone concerned about trans issues and very much like a pedant with poor intentions.
      - A_COMPUTER 12y ago
        Fine, I'll say it plainly. Using singular-they in all cases is in my mind a reasonable accommodation if you live in a world where there are two or more genders and you are obligated to use someone's gender-identification rather than their society-assigned gender. But during the Chelsea Manning trial, a group of serious people very "concerned about trans issues" demanded unreasonable accommodation, that all references to Manning as "he," even ones made in the past and which referred to her when the world identified her as male, had to be altered. My point is that using singular-they in every case, even if you think it could be a reasonable accommodation, is already not good enough for a significant number of people, both people that will still demand that you retroactively erase all reference to prior gender, and people for whom "they" is offensive and demand you memorize and use everyone's personal pronouns. I was not intending to mock trans people, I was mocking extremists in that group. It's really fucking annoying when you were for gender-neutral pronouns your whole life, took shit for that because nobody wanted to use "clumsy grammar," then you get shit from some trans people who claim that you're erasing their identity: <quote>Look, if you take gender neutral pronouns and start using them for people that aren’t gender neutral, you are appropriating my and other non-binary people’s pronouns, whatever way you cut it. You’re also erasing and devaluing both binary and non-binary trans* people, who have to fight every single day to be recognised and treated as their gender. This smacks of that whole ridiculous ’gender is irrelevant’ shit. That sentiment ‘gender is irrelevant’? Yeah, it’s trans* erasure.</quote> I am not the pedant. These people are the pedants. But these are the people you are going to be dealing with when you talk about what pronouns you should use in writing, so you better be aware of it.
- girvo 12y ago
  I agree! But that's a terrible example of it, IMO. Singular they should be used when the gender is unknown or not stated, or at least that's how I use it. It flows rather well in speech too for the most part, but if you know the gender then it causes a bit of cognitive dissonance.
  - pooper 12y ago
    > I agree! But that's a terrible example of it, IMO. Singular they should be used when the gender is unknown or not stated, or at least that's how I use it. It flows rather well in speech too for the most part, but if you know the gender then it causes a bit of cognitive dissonance. Yes, I got a little carried away. I was trying to say that there are cases where gender of the person is not important. I was trying to come up with a case where the person's gender was not important. In hindsight, since there have been no female POTUS I guess the gender is still relevant. A little off topic, I respect Barack Obama (not being sarcastic at all even though I probably disagree with him on more issues than I agree with him) and can imagine where he is coming from. In post-mortem, I'd imagine I was thinking in terms of something like an Overton window where I suggest something so outlandish hoping that we'd settle somewhere saner in between...
- cafard 12y ago
  He was born in 1861. They were born in 1776. The singular they makes sense for collective or vague pronouns, such as "anyone".
- shanusmagnus 12y ago
  It's like dealing with the annoyance of cleaning the litter box by setting your cats on fire and shooting them out of a cannon.

We can probably replace many instances of (s)he or he/she with a singular they. As the Wikipedia article says[1], this is not a recent phenomenon. If using he in a gender-neutral way or in gender ambiguous situations is somehow not politically correct, we should use the word they to replace all instances of he/she or (s)he or he or she where the gender is not important. This is probably the case in over half of our usage of he/she or (s)he or he or she. Instead of: Barack Obama is the current president of the United States. He was born in 1961. Say: Barack Obama is the current president of the United States. They were born in 1961. Fight the madness of people getting mad over gender of pronouns with a greater degree of madness. It is the only way. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

ams6110 12y ago
GP was point out that Diamond's first name is Rebecca, so "she" is almost certainly the correct pronoun in this case.
- gaius 12y ago
  If I heard someone referred to as "Diamond" in this context, I'd immediately assume the very famous author Jared Diamond.
  - nostrademons 12y ago
    Jared Diamond was my first thought as well, but this is a very good example of why it's important to RTFA.
graeme 12y ago
I feel like you're making a good argument but have chosen a singularly poor example. Use of "they" is most justified when the gender is unknown. Barack Obama is a very known male. At some point, we may use "they" for everyone, even if known. But at present, it's not accepted even for cases when gender is unknown. It's likely better to argue for its usage in unknown cases first before making a case for its usage even when gender is known. The latter is a far more radical proposition. (I use "they" when gender is unknown".)
- A_COMPUTER 12y ago
  Consider that like Chelsea Manning, at some point in the future Barack Obama may announce she has always been a woman. Also like Chelsea Manning, at that point you would be obligated to alter all past and present references to Barack Obama as "she," or else be guilty of a hateful and cruel misgendering slur. So as a matter of practicality it's probably easier just to use the singular-they in every case so you are being respectful. On the other hand, it still wouldn't be considerate to leave it at "they" if Barack Obama had clearly stated her preferred pronouns, so you might have to change it anyway so now I am not actually sure what advice to give.
  - davidtanner 12y ago
    You sound very unlike someone concerned about trans issues and very much like a pedant with poor intentions.
    - A_COMPUTER 12y ago
      Fine, I'll say it plainly. Using singular-they in all cases is in my mind a reasonable accommodation if you live in a world where there are two or more genders and you are obligated to use someone's gender-identification rather than their society-assigned gender. But during the Chelsea Manning trial, a group of serious people very "concerned about trans issues" demanded unreasonable accommodation, that all references to Manning as "he," even ones made in the past and which referred to her when the world identified her as male, had to be altered. My point is that using singular-they in every case, even if you think it could be a reasonable accommodation, is already not good enough for a significant number of people, both people that will still demand that you retroactively erase all reference to prior gender, and people for whom "they" is offensive and demand you memorize and use everyone's personal pronouns. I was not intending to mock trans people, I was mocking extremists in that group. It's really fucking annoying when you were for gender-neutral pronouns your whole life, took shit for that because nobody wanted to use "clumsy grammar," then you get shit from some trans people who claim that you're erasing their identity: <quote>Look, if you take gender neutral pronouns and start using them for people that aren’t gender neutral, you are appropriating my and other non-binary people’s pronouns, whatever way you cut it. You’re also erasing and devaluing both binary and non-binary trans* people, who have to fight every single day to be recognised and treated as their gender. This smacks of that whole ridiculous ’gender is irrelevant’ shit. That sentiment ‘gender is irrelevant’? Yeah, it’s trans* erasure.</quote> I am not the pedant. These people are the pedants. But these are the people you are going to be dealing with when you talk about what pronouns you should use in writing, so you better be aware of it.
girvo 12y ago
I agree! But that's a terrible example of it, IMO. Singular they should be used when the gender is unknown or not stated, or at least that's how I use it. It flows rather well in speech too for the most part, but if you know the gender then it causes a bit of cognitive dissonance.
- pooper 12y ago
  > I agree! But that's a terrible example of it, IMO. Singular they should be used when the gender is unknown or not stated, or at least that's how I use it. It flows rather well in speech too for the most part, but if you know the gender then it causes a bit of cognitive dissonance. Yes, I got a little carried away. I was trying to say that there are cases where gender of the person is not important. I was trying to come up with a case where the person's gender was not important. In hindsight, since there have been no female POTUS I guess the gender is still relevant. A little off topic, I respect Barack Obama (not being sarcastic at all even though I probably disagree with him on more issues than I agree with him) and can imagine where he is coming from. In post-mortem, I'd imagine I was thinking in terms of something like an Overton window where I suggest something so outlandish hoping that we'd settle somewhere saner in between...
cafard 12y ago
He was born in 1861. They were born in 1776. The singular they makes sense for collective or vague pronouns, such as "anyone".
shanusmagnus 12y ago
It's like dealing with the annoyance of cleaning the litter box by setting your cats on fire and shooting them out of a cannon.