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Thanks for the link. The exhibits really paint an appalling portrait of the guy. He's acting like an insecure 14 year old. I don't want to downplay the situa

by pwny 12y ago

Thanks for the link. The exhibits really paint an appalling portrait of the guy. He's acting like an insecure 14 year old. I don't want to downplay the situation but I feel like it's your responsibility as an adult to disengage from situations like this faster than she did. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess but the whole situation seems to have been really mishandled (and that's a feeling I'm getting from a court complaint from her side). Again, I'm not saying she asked for it or anything, just that pursuing an ongoing relationship might not have been the best idea. In any case, that seems to be a terrible working environment. I also find it kind of ironic that the co-founders of an inherently social app like Tinder appear so poor at handling interpersonal/romantic relationships.

davedx 12y ago
> I don't want to downplay the situation but I feel like it's your responsibility Article about sexual harassment on HN. Came to comments expected victim blaming, 2nd sentence in 2nd comment. Well done.
- pwny 12y ago
  If that's how it came across I probably really expressed myself improperly because that wasn't my point at all (English being my second language probably doesn't help and I really hesitated to post because I knew there was a chance I wasn't properly formulating my argument). So let me clarify: I don't believe it was her fault in any way. Quite the opposite, I believe 100% that the guy is at fault here. My point was more related to the fact that we (myself included) tend to maintain relationships that are clearly unhealthy in hindsight. I probably should have chosen a better word than responsibility seeing as it was more a comment aimed at the apparent lack of capacity to adequately disengage from unhealthy situations a lot of adults seem to exhibit. We're not used to saying "no" and to moving on. I was only saying this because similar situations happened to me in which I wished later that I could have disengaged and saved me some heartache. I believe (only from reading this complaint) that the behavior exhibited by Mateen is unacceptable and reprehensible and that he's clearly at fault. My intention was not to blame her but merely to express a general observation regarding a lot of relationship failures I witnessed. So if this came across as victim blaming I sincerely apologize. It wasn't the intent.
  - danilocampos 12y ago
    It's nothing to do with how you said it. The point is that reading something like this, the least interesting topic is what the complainant could have done differently. The principle discussion is: never shoulda happened. Inappropriate, unacceptable. Not second guessing the strategy of someone in an impossible situation. But you led with that. That's why you got called out.
    - pwny 12y ago
      I have to disagree that it's the least interesting topic. A relationship is never a one way street and while in this situation one of the party clearly seems to be at fault, it's not always the case. Of course it never should have happened but it has and so the discussion about damage mitigation is still a valid one. I wish I was taught any kind of disengagement skill when I was being bullied as a kid, even though it never should have happened (and since I can foresee the uproar here, I'm in no way implying the two are equivalent but merely noticing similarities).
      - DanBC 12y ago
        It's a shame that "here are some tips to protect yourzelf from assholes" only come up after a case like this. Because in this context it does feel a little bit like victim blaming, even with all the caveats.
        silencio 12y ago
        That's because it should read "here are some tips to avoid being an asshole". "Here are tips to protect yourself from assholes" is very much victim blaming no matter the context. Sure, some of it - most of it - might be good advice (e.g. don't date cofounders/coworkers) but in the end that advice in itself won't do anything if the other person is an asshole. Whitney could have avoided a relationship and tried to defuse things as best as she could, but Justin could still have been an ass and harass her for rejecting him.
        12y ago
- halloprow 12y ago
  This isn't an article about sexual harassment though. It's one side of the story, involving an obviously messy inappropriate relationship. Is it wise for two founders to date? I'd say no. She must share some of the blame, and who's to say what his side of the story is, and what exhibits he has showing her in a bad light?
  - mootothemax 12y ago
    This isn't an article about sexual harassment though... She must share some of the blame In your world, calling someone a whore in front of their co-workers is both acceptable and not sexual harassment? It's nonsense to suggest that somehow he was forced hurl such insults at her. The only person responsible their own actions is that same person; you don't get to abdicate responsibility for your actions just because you dated someone.
    - halloprow 12y ago
      You're still ignoring the fact that this is one sides account of an obviously messy situation. What happened before he called her a whore? Did she bait him, did she harass him, did she cheat on him, etc etc My point was when you date someone, there's often blame on both sides when things turn sour.
      - mootothemax 12y ago
        >>You're still ignoring the fact that this is one sides account of an obviously messy situation. Because it's irrelevant. >>What happened before he called her a whore? Did she bait him, did she harass him, did she cheat on him, etc etc It was his choice to call her a whore in front of their colleagues (and note: this is just one example from the harassment claim, there're plenty of unsavoury actions quoted). Words said or past actions don't give you the right to demean someone at the workplace. >>My point was when you date someone, there's often blame on both sides when things turn sour. Which, again, is irrelevant to creating a hostile working environment. When you're a grown-up, you accept responsibility for your actions, and that the only person making decisions about what you do is - guess what? - you. If you've had a messy breakup, well, honestly, that really really sucks. It absolutely does not give you the right to harass the other person.
SandB0x 12y ago
> I also find it kind of ironic that the co-founders of an inherently social app like Tinder appear so poor at handling interpersonal/romantic relationships. Maybe it's not so surprising if your idea of human interaction is based on a binarized version of hotornot.com
- derefr 12y ago
  I've never understood Tinder this way. To me, it's simply a pre-screening filter: you and everyone else throws out all the people who you would never want to date anyway, and then you're left with the set of people who have expressed mutual non-disinterest. From there, you get to know one-another as normal. Basically, it's less like a dating service, and more like meeting someone on the street--with the proviso that you never have to question whether the other person feels attracted to you.
yzzxy 12y ago
From what I understand of Tinder, it intrinsically plans on user's social insecurities in dating and other social media by removing risk from the situation.
- ninavizz 12y ago
  It's a dumb app, don't over-analyze it.
  - silencio 12y ago
    I thought Tinder's inherent mutual interest-based design was a step in a good direction for online dating. I had to set my okcupid profile to "women only" and then eventually deleted it because I was really tired of men I have nothing in common with messaging and harassing me. Forget other sites - they weren't any better. Mutual interest is a powerful thing. If overanalyzing Tinder will help create better dating apps so be it, we'll all be better off for it. disclaimer: I know a Tinder co-founder (not the one in question) but I'm married anyway, not in the dating pool ;)
  - coldtea 12y ago
    Dumb apps, products and services do incredible complex social things and have involved consequences to our psychology all the time -- even without any specific intent from their owners. It's not because the apps are smart and complex -- it's because WE, humans, are smart and complex.
mootothemax 12y ago
I don't want to downplay the situation but I feel like it's your responsibility as an adult to disengage from situations like this faster than she did. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess Honestly, I don't think it's that simple; some people are so insecure, you can run away to a different country and they'll still find a way to spoil your day with their obsessiveness. Would this have ended differently if she'd not pursued things after a couple of months, a month, a week? I'm not convinced; all it takes is for the person on the other end to be even a tiny bit obsessive, and it's game over. What might have helped is someone taking the guy aside and saying, "Mate, come on, you're taking this too far. I know you want to stay in touch, and that you still kinda like the girl. That's not healthy for you, though. You need to be the bigger person[1], and you need to move on." [1] A minor bit of ego stroking can help I genuinely believe that oftentimes, people don't realise that they're being scarily obsessive, and a trusted friend holding up a mirror can do wonders.
facepalm 12y ago
"He's acting like an insecure 14 year old" Let's outlaw insecure 14 year olds. Everybody who can't grow up emotionally in time should be eliminated from society and put behind bars.
kevingadd 12y ago
'disengage from situations like this' is a rather casual and insulting way to depict the idea of bailing out on founder/co-founder status on a startup you care about just because one of your cofounders turned out to be a piece of shit. Arguably her course of action was the correct one. She tried to resolve things quietly by being an adult, and tolerated a little bit of abuse in the hopes that the job could keep working and the startup wouldn't be undermined - obviously she cared about it. When it became clear that this shit wasn't going to stop, she resigned, and sued them. The best hope for Tinder as a company at this point is for the problematic founder(s) to be ejected so the company can be run by actual adults. For her to just roll over and quit would be unacceptable - they'd get to continue their abuse on other employees - and for her to just sit there and take it would also be unacceptable.

by pwny 12y ago

davedx 12y ago

> I don't want to downplay the situation but I feel like it's your responsibility Article about sexual harassment on HN. Came to comments expected victim blaming, 2nd sentence in 2nd comment. Well done.

pwny 12y ago
If that's how it came across I probably really expressed myself improperly because that wasn't my point at all (English being my second language probably doesn't help and I really hesitated to post because I knew there was a chance I wasn't properly formulating my argument). So let me clarify: I don't believe it was her fault in any way. Quite the opposite, I believe 100% that the guy is at fault here. My point was more related to the fact that we (myself included) tend to maintain relationships that are clearly unhealthy in hindsight. I probably should have chosen a better word than responsibility seeing as it was more a comment aimed at the apparent lack of capacity to adequately disengage from unhealthy situations a lot of adults seem to exhibit. We're not used to saying "no" and to moving on. I was only saying this because similar situations happened to me in which I wished later that I could have disengaged and saved me some heartache. I believe (only from reading this complaint) that the behavior exhibited by Mateen is unacceptable and reprehensible and that he's clearly at fault. My intention was not to blame her but merely to express a general observation regarding a lot of relationship failures I witnessed. So if this came across as victim blaming I sincerely apologize. It wasn't the intent.
- danilocampos 12y ago
  It's nothing to do with how you said it. The point is that reading something like this, the least interesting topic is what the complainant could have done differently. The principle discussion is: never shoulda happened. Inappropriate, unacceptable. Not second guessing the strategy of someone in an impossible situation. But you led with that. That's why you got called out.
  - pwny 12y ago
    I have to disagree that it's the least interesting topic. A relationship is never a one way street and while in this situation one of the party clearly seems to be at fault, it's not always the case. Of course it never should have happened but it has and so the discussion about damage mitigation is still a valid one. I wish I was taught any kind of disengagement skill when I was being bullied as a kid, even though it never should have happened (and since I can foresee the uproar here, I'm in no way implying the two are equivalent but merely noticing similarities).
    - DanBC 12y ago
      It's a shame that "here are some tips to protect yourzelf from assholes" only come up after a case like this. Because in this context it does feel a little bit like victim blaming, even with all the caveats.
      - silencio 12y ago
        That's because it should read "here are some tips to avoid being an asshole". "Here are tips to protect yourself from assholes" is very much victim blaming no matter the context. Sure, some of it - most of it - might be good advice (e.g. don't date cofounders/coworkers) but in the end that advice in itself won't do anything if the other person is an asshole. Whitney could have avoided a relationship and tried to defuse things as best as she could, but Justin could still have been an ass and harass her for rejecting him.
        12y ago
halloprow 12y ago
This isn't an article about sexual harassment though. It's one side of the story, involving an obviously messy inappropriate relationship. Is it wise for two founders to date? I'd say no. She must share some of the blame, and who's to say what his side of the story is, and what exhibits he has showing her in a bad light?
- mootothemax 12y ago
  This isn't an article about sexual harassment though... She must share some of the blame In your world, calling someone a whore in front of their co-workers is both acceptable and not sexual harassment? It's nonsense to suggest that somehow he was forced hurl such insults at her. The only person responsible their own actions is that same person; you don't get to abdicate responsibility for your actions just because you dated someone.
  - halloprow 12y ago
    You're still ignoring the fact that this is one sides account of an obviously messy situation. What happened before he called her a whore? Did she bait him, did she harass him, did she cheat on him, etc etc My point was when you date someone, there's often blame on both sides when things turn sour.
    - mootothemax 12y ago
      >>You're still ignoring the fact that this is one sides account of an obviously messy situation. Because it's irrelevant. >>What happened before he called her a whore? Did she bait him, did she harass him, did she cheat on him, etc etc It was his choice to call her a whore in front of their colleagues (and note: this is just one example from the harassment claim, there're plenty of unsavoury actions quoted). Words said or past actions don't give you the right to demean someone at the workplace. >>My point was when you date someone, there's often blame on both sides when things turn sour. Which, again, is irrelevant to creating a hostile working environment. When you're a grown-up, you accept responsibility for your actions, and that the only person making decisions about what you do is - guess what? - you. If you've had a messy breakup, well, honestly, that really really sucks. It absolutely does not give you the right to harass the other person.

SandB0x 12y ago

> I also find it kind of ironic that the co-founders of an inherently social app like Tinder appear so poor at handling interpersonal/romantic relationships. Maybe it's not so surprising if your idea of human interaction is based on a binarized version of hotornot.com

derefr 12y ago
I've never understood Tinder this way. To me, it's simply a pre-screening filter: you and everyone else throws out all the people who you would never want to date anyway, and then you're left with the set of people who have expressed mutual non-disinterest. From there, you get to know one-another as normal. Basically, it's less like a dating service, and more like meeting someone on the street--with the proviso that you never have to question whether the other person feels attracted to you.

yzzxy 12y ago

From what I understand of Tinder, it intrinsically plans on user's social insecurities in dating and other social media by removing risk from the situation.

ninavizz 12y ago
It's a dumb app, don't over-analyze it.
- silencio 12y ago
  I thought Tinder's inherent mutual interest-based design was a step in a good direction for online dating. I had to set my okcupid profile to "women only" and then eventually deleted it because I was really tired of men I have nothing in common with messaging and harassing me. Forget other sites - they weren't any better. Mutual interest is a powerful thing. If overanalyzing Tinder will help create better dating apps so be it, we'll all be better off for it. disclaimer: I know a Tinder co-founder (not the one in question) but I'm married anyway, not in the dating pool ;)
- coldtea 12y ago
  Dumb apps, products and services do incredible complex social things and have involved consequences to our psychology all the time -- even without any specific intent from their owners. It's not because the apps are smart and complex -- it's because WE, humans, are smart and complex.

mootothemax 12y ago

I don't want to downplay the situation but I feel like it's your responsibility as an adult to disengage from situations like this faster than she did. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess Honestly, I don't think it's that simple; some people are so insecure, you can run away to a different country and they'll still find a way to spoil your day with their obsessiveness. Would this have ended differently if she'd not pursued things after a couple of months, a month, a week? I'm not convinced; all it takes is for the person on the other end to be even a tiny bit obsessive, and it's game over. What might have helped is someone taking the guy aside and saying, "Mate, come on, you're taking this too far. I know you want to stay in touch, and that you still kinda like the girl. That's not healthy for you, though. You need to be the bigger person[1], and you need to move on." [1] A minor bit of ego stroking can help I genuinely believe that oftentimes, people don't realise that they're being scarily obsessive, and a trusted friend holding up a mirror can do wonders.

facepalm 12y ago

"He's acting like an insecure 14 year old" Let's outlaw insecure 14 year olds. Everybody who can't grow up emotionally in time should be eliminated from society and put behind bars.

kevingadd 12y ago

'disengage from situations like this' is a rather casual and insulting way to depict the idea of bailing out on founder/co-founder status on a startup you care about just because one of your cofounders turned out to be a piece of shit. Arguably her course of action was the correct one. She tried to resolve things quietly by being an adult, and tolerated a little bit of abuse in the hopes that the job could keep working and the startup wouldn't be undermined - obviously she cared about it. When it became clear that this shit wasn't going to stop, she resigned, and sued them. The best hope for Tinder as a company at this point is for the problematic founder(s) to be ejected so the company can be run by actual adults. For her to just roll over and quit would be unacceptable - they'd get to continue their abuse on other employees - and for her to just sit there and take it would also be unacceptable.