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Of course, if you buy an iPhone in Europe, and you want to use it any significant manner, you're getting spied on by US agencies as well: - GPS: the wifi and c

by Holbein 12y ago

Of course, if you buy an iPhone in Europe, and you want to use it any significant manner, you're getting spied on by US agencies as well: - GPS: the wifi and celltower db queries that optimize the service are transferred into a foreign country. - use Siri: uploads your whole address book to US servers before use - use iCloud tabs: every URL you visit it uploaded to Apple's US servers - turn on the only cloud backup solution available on the device, and all your data, including every SMS, every call and all your most private notes and photos are also transferred into the foreign country of the US, with a chance of it being analyzed by certain agencies. In other words, this might qualify as getting spied on as well.

gress 12y ago
This is just speculation, although possible. Whereas if you buy an Android phone in Europe, you know for certain that your data and behavior are being examined by Google, and are available to US agencies.
- Holbein 12y ago
  What is speculation about this? - wifi and celltower db query servers are indeed hosted outside EU - Siri indeed uploads your whole address book - it even tells you about that beforehand! - iCloud tabs must upload every URL to a central server, it would not work otherwise - the mud puddle test* proves that iCloud backup is extractable from Apple servers by third parties. *http://www.magnir.com/2012/08/how-secure-is-your-cloud-take-the-mud-puddle-test/ http://www.magnir.com/2012/08/how-secure-is-your-cloud-take-...
  - gress 12y ago
    The speculation is about whether it's accessible to US agencies.
    - MichaelGG 12y ago
      NSLs exist, and is there any reason to believe they're not enforceable for non-US data? I think the unresolved issue is if a normal warrant/subpoena can force a US company to hand over data from a EU subsidiary for a EU end user.
      - fpgeek 12y ago
        > NSLs exist, and is there any reason to believe they're not enforceable for non-US data? Given the pains the NSA took (no matter how tortured the logic got), to keep trying to claim they weren't spying on Americans [except when they talked to non-Americans, or talked to someone when outside the US, or when an otherwise American communication got routed outside the US, or they accidentally included American data in a sweep "targeted" at non-American data, etc.]... I think we have plenty of evidence that the opposite is true. Assuming the data is available in the US (so no other country can get in the way), it's easier to demand non-US data than it is to demand US data. Don't forget: part of the detestable legal rationalizations behind this surveillance is that non-US people have no Fourth Amendment rights - eliminating many classes of potential or actual legal barriers.
- ChrisClark 12y ago
  That also is just speculation, although possible.
  - gress 12y ago
    No, we know the data is being examined by Google.
contingencies 12y ago
- GSM/CDMA: location and communications peers can be tracked neatly, over time, forever, in a manner that can be used to easily determine social interactions even based on proximity. Data very frequently extracted from your carrier for 'outsourced billing' purposes to Mossad/NSA via http://amdocs.com/ http://amdocs.com/
SoftwareMaven 12y ago
These are cases of making trade-offs for capability, not outright malware. And why limit it to the iPhone? Do you honestly believe Google is capturing less information?
johansch 12y ago
- use Safari: everything you type in the address field gets sent to a US company.
- wyager 12y ago
  You can disable suggestions. It's either in privacy or safari settings.
- bilbo0s 12y ago
  Same with Chrome.
gress 12y ago
This is even more true for Android phones.
coldtea 12y ago
Why single out iPhone? How's that different from using an Android phone? Or for that matter any brand of phone + the prevalent mobile surveillance of messages, locations, etc?
- fpgeek 12y ago
  The article already singled out Android. So far as I can tell, "Generic Star N9500" phone in question is an Android phone: http://www.amazon.com/Generic-Star-N9500-Android-MTK6589/dp/B00C3UYRYA http://www.amazon.com/Generic-Star-N9500-Android-MTK6589/dp/...

by Holbein 12y ago

gress 12y ago

This is just speculation, although possible. Whereas if you buy an Android phone in Europe, you know for certain that your data and behavior are being examined by Google, and are available to US agencies.

Holbein 12y ago
What is speculation about this? - wifi and celltower db query servers are indeed hosted outside EU - Siri indeed uploads your whole address book - it even tells you about that beforehand! - iCloud tabs must upload every URL to a central server, it would not work otherwise - the mud puddle test* proves that iCloud backup is extractable from Apple servers by third parties. *http://www.magnir.com/2012/08/how-secure-is-your-cloud-take-the-mud-puddle-test/ http://www.magnir.com/2012/08/how-secure-is-your-cloud-take-...
- gress 12y ago
  The speculation is about whether it's accessible to US agencies.
  - MichaelGG 12y ago
    NSLs exist, and is there any reason to believe they're not enforceable for non-US data? I think the unresolved issue is if a normal warrant/subpoena can force a US company to hand over data from a EU subsidiary for a EU end user.
    - fpgeek 12y ago
      > NSLs exist, and is there any reason to believe they're not enforceable for non-US data? Given the pains the NSA took (no matter how tortured the logic got), to keep trying to claim they weren't spying on Americans [except when they talked to non-Americans, or talked to someone when outside the US, or when an otherwise American communication got routed outside the US, or they accidentally included American data in a sweep "targeted" at non-American data, etc.]... I think we have plenty of evidence that the opposite is true. Assuming the data is available in the US (so no other country can get in the way), it's easier to demand non-US data than it is to demand US data. Don't forget: part of the detestable legal rationalizations behind this surveillance is that non-US people have no Fourth Amendment rights - eliminating many classes of potential or actual legal barriers.
ChrisClark 12y ago
That also is just speculation, although possible.
- gress 12y ago
  No, we know the data is being examined by Google.

contingencies 12y ago

- GSM/CDMA: location and communications peers can be tracked neatly, over time, forever, in a manner that can be used to easily determine social interactions even based on proximity. Data very frequently extracted from your carrier for 'outsourced billing' purposes to Mossad/NSA via http://amdocs.com/ http://amdocs.com/

SoftwareMaven 12y ago

These are cases of making trade-offs for capability, not outright malware. And why limit it to the iPhone? Do you honestly believe Google is capturing less information?

johansch 12y ago

- use Safari: everything you type in the address field gets sent to a US company.

wyager 12y ago
You can disable suggestions. It's either in privacy or safari settings.
bilbo0s 12y ago
Same with Chrome.

gress 12y ago

This is even more true for Android phones.

coldtea 12y ago

Why single out iPhone? How's that different from using an Android phone? Or for that matter any brand of phone + the prevalent mobile surveillance of messages, locations, etc?

fpgeek 12y ago
The article already singled out Android. So far as I can tell, "Generic Star N9500" phone in question is an Android phone: http://www.amazon.com/Generic-Star-N9500-Android-MTK6589/dp/B00C3UYRYA http://www.amazon.com/Generic-Star-N9500-Android-MTK6589/dp/...