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Show HN: Instant confirmation via Bitcoin payment protocol

41 points by BrokenPipe 12y ago

BrokenPipe 12y ago
Hello:) Author of the BIP draft for the Instant Confirmation Payment Protocol aka BIP70 extension and founder of GreenAddress. You can find the draft here https://github.com/greenaddress/bips/blob/bip-payment-request-instant-confirmations/bip-payment-request-instant-confirmations.mediawiki https://github.com/greenaddress/bips/blob/bip-payment-reques... Bitcoin dev mailing list discussion http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.bitcoin.devel/5628 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.bitcoin.devel/5628 Reddit discussion http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/284me8/instant_confirmation_via_payment_protocol_bip70/ http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/284me8/instant_conf... The aim of this extension is to reduce risk by allowing, via a third party, instant confirmation of bitcoin transactions. Questions, comments and in general any feedback is very welcome! Cheers! Lawrence
- wdewind 12y ago
  It seems that much of the "bitcoin is great because it is feeless" stuff is going to get eaten up by the services/fraud reduction layer put on top of it, by stuff like this. Right now, including miner fees, it seems like the transaction cost of bitcoin is actually as high, if not higher, than most credit cards. How do you see the fees finalizing? Will there still be a significant cost reduction for in person transactions once the industry has matured a bit more? (equivalent of CC transactions in terms of ease of use). Either way, this is a cool idea, best of luck to you.
  - LyndsySimon 12y ago
    Some of those things are worth paying for. The revolutionary thing about Bitcoin (from a financial systems perspective) is that those things are optional. If I don't want or need instant confirms, I don't have to use them. Another important thing to note is that you're likely a member of a very privileged class, by virtue of being on HN. You likely have a bank account and a credit card. Not everyone is so lucky, and Bitcoin serves many of the same needs you fulfill with the traditional financial system. Then you have remittance. Imagine you are a Somali immigrant living in Michigan, and you'd like to send money to your brother in Xamar. How do you do that? It's legal, but to my knowledge no US Bank operates in the region. Bitcoin world's as easily to your brother as it does to anyone else.
    - dublinben 12y ago
      Bitcoin users are an even more privileged class of the already privileged population. They have regular access to a private computer, and robust internet access. That is not the case for most people in the world.
      - BrokenPipe 12y ago
        Do you think the banking industry will support the unbanked faster than a stable and accessible internet will reach them?
        wdewind 12y ago
        > Do you think the banking industry will support the unbanked faster than a stable and accessible internet will reach them? I would guess so. It's unlikely that big, stable telco companies get created without banks. Edit: and also, BrokenPipe, I'd really like to hear your thoughts on my original question since you are the author here...
        BrokenPipe 12y ago
        I got distracted, sorry I think fees will get cheaper as times goes by and the bitcoin network and market matures but it is very hard to say right now with the current transaction size limitations. Bitcoin is still in early development and very niche, so far the incentives have been working well enough but once the block rewards halves is yet to be seen if fees will be competitive enough and whether the price for them will go up. We also have to hope that the block size and the network capacity can grow fast enough to support its own weight. In general I think that as more players come in the industry the fees of exchanges, atms, debit cards etc will decrease. I wish some core developer could also contribute to answer your question and provide more insight than i can offer.
        wdewind 12y ago
        Makes sense, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
- contingencies 12y ago
  Last night, at the city-that-shall-not-be-named Bitcoin meetup, we specifically discussed this sort of BIP, and I raised the opinion which was initially posted in response to Gavin's support for BIP70, which is that the last thing Bitcoin needs is more complexity. Fundamentally, Bitcoin is trying to be a settlement network and an asset and a UI and a platform for developing future financial services and now a half-baked business-oriented transaction layer on top of the settlement network. Unix philosophy[1] says this is insane, and as someone involved with one of the largest exchanges, I'm inclined to agree. Most of this stuff boils down to using Bitcoin to try to solve things it's not well-suited to solving, eg. instant payment. I mean .. adding X.509 & SSL[2] to Bitcoin clients to 'simplify' payments? Really? Do you guys have any idea what that does to an implementation's risk model? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy [2] https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0070.mediawiki https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0070.mediawi...
  - BrokenPipe 12y ago
    To answer to your question, I think your points have already been raised and while I may even share them BIP70 is by default using SSL and X.509 and it seems natural to use it for extensions too. Other than that, instant confirmation is also done via our own API (which is via wss, ssl) and there is no reason as to why it couldn't be done with ECDSA instead, issue as usual is key management. You think arbitrage&liquidity between exchanges via instant confirmation is not well suited for exchanges?
    - contingencies 12y ago
      You think arbitrage&liquidity between exchanges via instant confirmation is not well suited for exchanges? With all due respect, correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe you run a major exchange. There are loads of factors that need to be considered including legal, fraud, security, timezones, multi-hop settlement times (transactions that involve crossing assets) for which we are perhaps one hop and which rely on speed and precalculable latencies, etc. Basically, if anything at all to do with running and exchange seems 'obvious', you probably don't have the whole picture. Furthermore, most of these issues are better solved in a manner that is not asset-specific or intimately connected to an asset-specific settlement network, ie. we really don't want Bitcoin to provide its own, half-assed solution for what is not a Bitcoin-specific problem.
HostFat 12y ago
I hope to see it soon on my lovely iphone!
- BrokenPipe 12y ago
  For the record I know HostFat does not have an iPhone and he is a friend. I think.
dublinben 12y ago
I would be incredibly careful of trusting any new BTC trust protocols this week, with the ongoing 51% threat from GHash. http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/06/bitcoin-security-guarantee-shattered-by-anonymous-miner-with-51-network-power/ http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/06/bitcoin-security-gua...
- BrokenPipe 12y ago
  reminds me of this comment on reddit http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/284me8/instant_confirmation_via_payment_protocol_bip70/ci7dsej http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/284me8/instant_conf... Not to dismiss the 51% issue but that would affect all transactions, this -'instant protocol' is on top of bitcoin, not in replacement of.
- LyndsySimon 12y ago
  Ongoing? Their network skate had dropped substantially.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
tyho 12y ago
Which merchants currently accept your key for instant confirmations? From the bitcoin wiki: [green addresses] are generally considered a bad idea and not advisable to implement.
- BrokenPipe 12y ago
  An ATM bitcoin to cash manufacturer is testing the functionality right now and another one is planning to integrate it when they implement the payment protocol. There's also other users that can check either inside the GreenAddress wallet or at https://greenaddress.it/instant https://greenaddress.it/instant it's called GreenAddress because when I thought about the concept, end of 2012 beginning of 2013 it wasn't yet associated with the bad reputation or MtGox double spends and I felt anyhow that it could be improved (which I think we did). The modus operandi of the platform is different from the original GreenAddress concept as the instant confirmation comes out of band and is based on multisignature allowing the system to prevent users double spends. However, like the original GreenAddress concept, it is based on third party trust, there is no magic bullet.
  - tyho 12y ago
    How could you prevent somebody signing a transaction using your service, waiting until the nLockTime has expired, then creating a transaction that is not signed by you but valid due to the nLockTime expiry? They would then be in a position to double spend because they could use a transaction that is verified by you to buy something instantly (cash from an ATM for example) and redirect the same funds back to their own control using the single signature transaction with a high chance of success.
    - BrokenPipe 12y ago
      We only provide instant confirmations for bitcoins we know that are going to get included in a block long before the nlocktime will expire allowing you to spend them.
      - tyho 12y ago
nijiko 12y ago
Yay, easy way to confirm false transactions :D
- BrokenPipe 12y ago
  Not really, the payment protocol gives you back the full transaction that can be checked by the merchant. The 'instant' comes from trusting a third party that temporarily controls enough keys to block the funds before they can get double spent but long enough that the tx can be confirmed.
abrkn 12y ago
"...or analysing transaction network propagation." Haven't we already agreed this is meaningless?
- BrokenPipe 12y ago
  I think we did, good point. It should be removed imho. Especially since the instant confirmation with a monitor couldn't really be synchronous without .. wait for it, waiting. good catch!

41 points by BrokenPipe 12y ago

Hello:) Author of the BIP draft for the Instant Confirmation Payment Protocol aka BIP70 extension and founder of GreenAddress. You can find the draft here https://github.com/greenaddress/bips/blob/bip-payment-request-instant-confirmations/bip-payment-request-instant-confirmations.mediawiki https://github.com/greenaddress/bips/blob/bip-payment-reques... Bitcoin dev mailing list discussion http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.bitcoin.devel/5628 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.bitcoin.devel/5628 Reddit discussion http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/284me8/instant_confirmation_via_payment_protocol_bip70/ http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/284me8/instant_conf... The aim of this extension is to reduce risk by allowing, via a third party, instant confirmation of bitcoin transactions. Questions, comments and in general any feedback is very welcome! Cheers! Lawrence

wdewind 12y ago
It seems that much of the "bitcoin is great because it is feeless" stuff is going to get eaten up by the services/fraud reduction layer put on top of it, by stuff like this. Right now, including miner fees, it seems like the transaction cost of bitcoin is actually as high, if not higher, than most credit cards. How do you see the fees finalizing? Will there still be a significant cost reduction for in person transactions once the industry has matured a bit more? (equivalent of CC transactions in terms of ease of use). Either way, this is a cool idea, best of luck to you.
- LyndsySimon 12y ago
  Some of those things are worth paying for. The revolutionary thing about Bitcoin (from a financial systems perspective) is that those things are optional. If I don't want or need instant confirms, I don't have to use them. Another important thing to note is that you're likely a member of a very privileged class, by virtue of being on HN. You likely have a bank account and a credit card. Not everyone is so lucky, and Bitcoin serves many of the same needs you fulfill with the traditional financial system. Then you have remittance. Imagine you are a Somali immigrant living in Michigan, and you'd like to send money to your brother in Xamar. How do you do that? It's legal, but to my knowledge no US Bank operates in the region. Bitcoin world's as easily to your brother as it does to anyone else.
  - dublinben 12y ago
    Bitcoin users are an even more privileged class of the already privileged population. They have regular access to a private computer, and robust internet access. That is not the case for most people in the world.
    - BrokenPipe 12y ago
      Do you think the banking industry will support the unbanked faster than a stable and accessible internet will reach them?
      - wdewind 12y ago
        > Do you think the banking industry will support the unbanked faster than a stable and accessible internet will reach them? I would guess so. It's unlikely that big, stable telco companies get created without banks. Edit: and also, BrokenPipe, I'd really like to hear your thoughts on my original question since you are the author here...
        BrokenPipe 12y ago
        I got distracted, sorry I think fees will get cheaper as times goes by and the bitcoin network and market matures but it is very hard to say right now with the current transaction size limitations. Bitcoin is still in early development and very niche, so far the incentives have been working well enough but once the block rewards halves is yet to be seen if fees will be competitive enough and whether the price for them will go up. We also have to hope that the block size and the network capacity can grow fast enough to support its own weight. In general I think that as more players come in the industry the fees of exchanges, atms, debit cards etc will decrease. I wish some core developer could also contribute to answer your question and provide more insight than i can offer.
        wdewind 12y ago
        Makes sense, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
contingencies 12y ago
Last night, at the city-that-shall-not-be-named Bitcoin meetup, we specifically discussed this sort of BIP, and I raised the opinion which was initially posted in response to Gavin's support for BIP70, which is that the last thing Bitcoin needs is more complexity. Fundamentally, Bitcoin is trying to be a settlement network and an asset and a UI and a platform for developing future financial services and now a half-baked business-oriented transaction layer on top of the settlement network. Unix philosophy[1] says this is insane, and as someone involved with one of the largest exchanges, I'm inclined to agree. Most of this stuff boils down to using Bitcoin to try to solve things it's not well-suited to solving, eg. instant payment. I mean .. adding X.509 & SSL[2] to Bitcoin clients to 'simplify' payments? Really? Do you guys have any idea what that does to an implementation's risk model? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy [2] https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0070.mediawiki https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0070.mediawi...
- BrokenPipe 12y ago
  To answer to your question, I think your points have already been raised and while I may even share them BIP70 is by default using SSL and X.509 and it seems natural to use it for extensions too. Other than that, instant confirmation is also done via our own API (which is via wss, ssl) and there is no reason as to why it couldn't be done with ECDSA instead, issue as usual is key management. You think arbitrage&liquidity between exchanges via instant confirmation is not well suited for exchanges?
  - contingencies 12y ago
    You think arbitrage&liquidity between exchanges via instant confirmation is not well suited for exchanges? With all due respect, correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe you run a major exchange. There are loads of factors that need to be considered including legal, fraud, security, timezones, multi-hop settlement times (transactions that involve crossing assets) for which we are perhaps one hop and which rely on speed and precalculable latencies, etc. Basically, if anything at all to do with running and exchange seems 'obvious', you probably don't have the whole picture. Furthermore, most of these issues are better solved in a manner that is not asset-specific or intimately connected to an asset-specific settlement network, ie. we really don't want Bitcoin to provide its own, half-assed solution for what is not a Bitcoin-specific problem.

HostFat 12y ago

I hope to see it soon on my lovely iphone!

BrokenPipe 12y ago
For the record I know HostFat does not have an iPhone and he is a friend. I think.

dublinben 12y ago

I would be incredibly careful of trusting any new BTC trust protocols this week, with the ongoing 51% threat from GHash. http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/06/bitcoin-security-guarantee-shattered-by-anonymous-miner-with-51-network-power/ http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/06/bitcoin-security-gua...

BrokenPipe 12y ago
reminds me of this comment on reddit http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/284me8/instant_confirmation_via_payment_protocol_bip70/ci7dsej http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/284me8/instant_conf... Not to dismiss the 51% issue but that would affect all transactions, this -'instant protocol' is on top of bitcoin, not in replacement of.
LyndsySimon 12y ago
Ongoing? Their network skate had dropped substantially.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

tyho 12y ago

Which merchants currently accept your key for instant confirmations? From the bitcoin wiki: [green addresses] are generally considered a bad idea and not advisable to implement.

BrokenPipe 12y ago
An ATM bitcoin to cash manufacturer is testing the functionality right now and another one is planning to integrate it when they implement the payment protocol. There's also other users that can check either inside the GreenAddress wallet or at https://greenaddress.it/instant https://greenaddress.it/instant it's called GreenAddress because when I thought about the concept, end of 2012 beginning of 2013 it wasn't yet associated with the bad reputation or MtGox double spends and I felt anyhow that it could be improved (which I think we did). The modus operandi of the platform is different from the original GreenAddress concept as the instant confirmation comes out of band and is based on multisignature allowing the system to prevent users double spends. However, like the original GreenAddress concept, it is based on third party trust, there is no magic bullet.
- tyho 12y ago
  How could you prevent somebody signing a transaction using your service, waiting until the nLockTime has expired, then creating a transaction that is not signed by you but valid due to the nLockTime expiry? They would then be in a position to double spend because they could use a transaction that is verified by you to buy something instantly (cash from an ATM for example) and redirect the same funds back to their own control using the single signature transaction with a high chance of success.
  - BrokenPipe 12y ago
    We only provide instant confirmations for bitcoins we know that are going to get included in a block long before the nlocktime will expire allowing you to spend them.
    - tyho 12y ago

nijiko 12y ago

Yay, easy way to confirm false transactions :D

BrokenPipe 12y ago
Not really, the payment protocol gives you back the full transaction that can be checked by the merchant. The 'instant' comes from trusting a third party that temporarily controls enough keys to block the funds before they can get double spent but long enough that the tx can be confirmed.

abrkn 12y ago

"...or analysing transaction network propagation." Haven't we already agreed this is meaningless?

BrokenPipe 12y ago
I think we did, good point. It should be removed imho. Especially since the instant confirmation with a monitor couldn't really be synchronous without .. wait for it, waiting. good catch!