7 ms·

PHP Is A Husk

13 points by lucasoman 17y ago

ojbyrne 17y ago
I found the repeated misspelling of "lambda" to be off-putting.
- dasil003 17y ago
  it's odd because it's one of those words that's hard to imagine someone having learned only through spoken language.
- lucasoman 17y ago
  Fixed, thanks for pointing that out. And as "the guy who built Digg.com for $10/hr", that's all the feedback you'll give me?!
  - ojbyrne 17y ago
    I use php everyday, and as the guy who built digg (in php) I'd say - I agree with everything you say, but 99% of business has nothing at all to do with what programming language you use. But, _intellectualism_ does have plenty to do with building a successful business, and for most developers, that manifests itself as language wars. So I liked the article from that perspective.
    - lucasoman 17y ago
      Yes, I understand the business side. But I studied Computer Science in school. I take pride in my work, and I regard an expertly-forged piece of code as a work of art. It's not simply a means to an end, and, even if sometimes I complain a lot, I hope even my employer sees the benefit in my taking what I do so seriously.
      - pyman 17y ago
        Haha, you are not Van Gough, you are a code monkey. You think your code is a piece of art, but the guy who's going to maintain it may think it's a piece of shit and can end up rewriting it, using a different language, one he thinks is better. Just like you did, Mr. van Gough ;)
onreact-com 17y ago
It is? Strange, mine still works. Am I a PHP zombie? On a side note: I'm tired of the "Pull a Calacanis" type of headlines like "x is dead", "x sucks" or "x is bullshit". Please come up with something better.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- jasonmcalacanis 17y ago
  I'm tired of Calacanis too.... please pull a Scoble and say "x will kill x-1"
- mechanical_fish 17y ago
  It's too bad that standard hacker slang for "I am incredibly disappointed and feel like kicking something today" is so similar to linkbait. But, really, what is one supposed to say when one discovers this: $this cannot be used in lambdas or closures. So, when it comes to using these new features with objects, they're quite nearly completely useless. ... except "This is bullshit?" I mean, that's the censored version of what I think about this.
  - lucasoman 17y ago
    Exactly! I'm not interested in link bait. I'm just really depressed after I finally made the realization--just last night--that the language I've been using for years is going nowhere but down.
    - pyman 17y ago
      It looks to me that the only thing going down is you, as a programmer. You've been writing PHP scripts all your life, I understand why you are depressed.
      - lucasoman 17y ago
        yawn
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
jacquesm 17y ago
It's a crappy title, but the article is pretty good. PHP is a niche language, the niche is probably best described as "for want of something else that seems so easy to use and has such a low barrier to entry we are forced use it for web development". The interesting thing here is that apparently the difference between PHP and the 'rest' of the languages out there is not large enough to supplant PHP in the WWW domain. It's close enough to C that a whole generation of C programmers is intuitively at home in PHP, until they start using its advanced features. But as long as you have to do simple stuff and get paid for that it almost always works. The few times that it doesn't you wished you never knew about the language though. Just imagine, a language where the default 'scope' is global but globals are not available to functions and silently get replaced with empty variables. Who came up with that gem ?
- jamroom 17y ago
  The default scope within a function is not global, and all global variables are available within a function by using the keyword "global". You can also access the superglobals, but that of course is optional.
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    hacking the procrast to be able to answer you... The default scope is global, I did not say 'within a function'. I know about the 'global' keyword, as does everybody else that has used PHP for more than 5 minutes. If your language has a C like syntax and you have a default scope (which means that you can start executing code right from the first line without being in a function definition) then the default behaviour of a variable should be that it either does not exist inside a function (different scope) and throws an error or it should refer to the global variable. To have a 'third option', which silently creates empty variables is very (no, make that extremely) poor design. And no, I'm not telling how to break noprocrast :)
- edw519 17y ago
  The interesting thing here is that apparently the difference between PHP and the 'rest' of the languages out there is not large enough to supplant PHP in the WWW domain. Very astute observation. PHP doesn't have to be the best. It just has to be good enough to maintain it's place.
dpcan 17y ago
If you are trying to do something "more advanced", why are you trying to use PHP at all? What do you consider "advanced"? Just the WAY you use the language, or the application you are trying to write? PHP is trying really hard (it seems) to be a more advanced language, possibly to get new users to move over from other languages. But they don't need to. They should just stick to their roots, do what they do best: Super small learning curve, low barrier to entry, it's everywhere, it works great for most apps, keep CRUD super-simple.
- lucasoman 17y ago
  My biggest interest in PHP is job-related. I work for a large travel website whose software is all OO PHP. If it weren't for that, I'd probably be in Perl-, Ruby- or Python-land.
- jamroom 17y ago
  So far I have not personally run into anything I _can't_ do in PHP - it may take some creative thinking, but there is usually a solution - this includes "advanced" functionality as well. I think what a lot of the issues people have with PHP is not that it can't do something, but more that many of the ways you implement something feels like a "hack" - it works, but isn't as elegant as other languages.
- dasil003 17y ago
  I wish they would have put more effort into deprecation and cleaning up past messes instead of building new features to attract serious developers and making things even more of a mess.
thaumaturgy 17y ago
I usually don't jump into these kinds of threads. You get an awful lot of programmers -- some hobbyist, some professional, some experienced, and most of them self-taught -- all with their own prejudices and methodologies, all arguing over what the "right" way is. They go absolutely nowhere, do nothing productive, and turn into a huge time sink for everyone involved. That said, this article, and every other one like it, reeks of some strange belief that every single language is supposed to have all of the features of some programmer's favorite language, as well as all of the neat new trendy stuff, and if the language doesn't support all of that -- well then it's dead! Or dying. Or "a husk". There doesn't seem to be any realization on the part of the programmer that a particular language is just a tool, usually designed for a specific application. The programmer is attempting to fit a square peg into a round hole, and they're cursing at the square peg because it doesn't fit. Let's take one example: closures. They sounded interesting, and potentially could solve a problem in a large JavaScript library I was working on. So I got to know them, I practiced with them, I made sure I grokked them before trying to apply them. Then I put them to work, and found that they ended up making my library unnecessarily complex, that they caused some odd behaviors occasionally, and that they didn't solve any problem that I couldn't more easily solve using simpler methods. So, does PHP's lack of this author's favorite features really make it a "husk"? No, not at all. Applications as large and complex as osCommerce don't rely on those language features; they rely on the features that the language does have, and they work just fine. One of the most basic skills programmers need to have in their toolbox is the ability to adapt their habits according to the tools they're using. The programmers that spend their time writing blog posts like this one don't seem to have picked that up. ...Ugh, this just cost me 10 minutes that I could've spent actually working on one of my projects. :-(
- lucasoman 17y ago
  I'm not complaining about what features PHP has. In fact, I was never that annoyed that PHP didn't have lamdas or closures until now. My problem is that it wasn't implemented _correctly_. If you're going to implement a feature, do it right or don't do it at all. Their lack of concern or pride in their project does not bode well for the community.
  - 17y ago
garnet7 17y ago
My guess is that many developers probably don't actually choose PHP per se but rather get stuck using it because that's what the shop they work for uses, or that's what the current site is implemented in and they're only adding a feature, or that's what the client is asking for, etc. More interesting to me is the question: Why is PHP beating Python in this space? Some guesses: * PHP webapps far easier to deploy. * PHP docs give more usage examples, and also allow user comments.
mjs 17y ago
The corresponding PHP bug report: http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=47665 http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=47665 (Closed as "not a bug". Surprise!)
shaunxcode 17y ago
I don't think the lambda and closure support was intended to mesh so succinctly object oriented features of php. You have to realize php is a multi-paradigm language and proceed accordingly. You can honestly implement your own oo system using arrays and anon functions/closures if you would like (much like perl). The only thing making it a little fugly/brutal is the HORRIBLE php "array(" syntax.
pyman 17y ago
Very mediocre post. Including the comments. "Use php, python, no, use ruby instead! Facebook uses PHP, YouTube Python, blah blah". Kids, kids, behave! Scripting languages are for kids and web developers who don't know anything about programming and software engineering. I've worked with Perl and Python developers for the last couple of years... they struggle to understand design patterns and don't even know what a domain object is.
pyman 17y ago
Very mediocre post. Including the comments. I think scripting languages are for kids and web developers who don't know anything about programming and software engineering. I've worked with Perl and Python developers for the last couple of years... they struggle to understand design patterns and don't even know what a domain object is.
pyman 17y ago
Very mediocre post. Including the comments. I think scripting languages are for kids and web developers who don't know anything about programming and software engineering. I've worked with Perl and Python developers for the last couple of years, they struggle to understand design patterns and don't even know what a domain object is.
pyman 17y ago
I think scripting languages are for kids and web developers who don't know anything about programming and software engineering. I've worked with Perl and Python developers for the last couple of years... they struggle to understand design patterns and don't even know what a domain object is.

PHP Is A Husk

13 points by lucasoman 17y ago

ojbyrne 17y ago

I found the repeated misspelling of "lambda" to be off-putting.

dasil003 17y ago
it's odd because it's one of those words that's hard to imagine someone having learned only through spoken language.
lucasoman 17y ago
Fixed, thanks for pointing that out. And as "the guy who built Digg.com for $10/hr", that's all the feedback you'll give me?!
- ojbyrne 17y ago
  I use php everyday, and as the guy who built digg (in php) I'd say - I agree with everything you say, but 99% of business has nothing at all to do with what programming language you use. But, _intellectualism_ does have plenty to do with building a successful business, and for most developers, that manifests itself as language wars. So I liked the article from that perspective.
  - lucasoman 17y ago
    Yes, I understand the business side. But I studied Computer Science in school. I take pride in my work, and I regard an expertly-forged piece of code as a work of art. It's not simply a means to an end, and, even if sometimes I complain a lot, I hope even my employer sees the benefit in my taking what I do so seriously.
    - pyman 17y ago
      Haha, you are not Van Gough, you are a code monkey. You think your code is a piece of art, but the guy who's going to maintain it may think it's a piece of shit and can end up rewriting it, using a different language, one he thinks is better. Just like you did, Mr. van Gough ;)

onreact-com 17y ago

It is? Strange, mine still works. Am I a PHP zombie? On a side note: I'm tired of the "Pull a Calacanis" type of headlines like "x is dead", "x sucks" or "x is bullshit". Please come up with something better.

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
jasonmcalacanis 17y ago
I'm tired of Calacanis too.... please pull a Scoble and say "x will kill x-1"
mechanical_fish 17y ago
It's too bad that standard hacker slang for "I am incredibly disappointed and feel like kicking something today" is so similar to linkbait. But, really, what is one supposed to say when one discovers this: $this cannot be used in lambdas or closures. So, when it comes to using these new features with objects, they're quite nearly completely useless. ... except "This is bullshit?" I mean, that's the censored version of what I think about this.
- lucasoman 17y ago
  Exactly! I'm not interested in link bait. I'm just really depressed after I finally made the realization--just last night--that the language I've been using for years is going nowhere but down.
  - pyman 17y ago
    It looks to me that the only thing going down is you, as a programmer. You've been writing PHP scripts all your life, I understand why you are depressed.
    - lucasoman 17y ago
      yawn

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

jacquesm 17y ago

It's a crappy title, but the article is pretty good. PHP is a niche language, the niche is probably best described as "for want of something else that seems so easy to use and has such a low barrier to entry we are forced use it for web development". The interesting thing here is that apparently the difference between PHP and the 'rest' of the languages out there is not large enough to supplant PHP in the WWW domain. It's close enough to C that a whole generation of C programmers is intuitively at home in PHP, until they start using its advanced features. But as long as you have to do simple stuff and get paid for that it almost always works. The few times that it doesn't you wished you never knew about the language though. Just imagine, a language where the default 'scope' is global but globals are not available to functions and silently get replaced with empty variables. Who came up with that gem ?

jamroom 17y ago
The default scope within a function is not global, and all global variables are available within a function by using the keyword "global". You can also access the superglobals, but that of course is optional.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  hacking the procrast to be able to answer you... The default scope is global, I did not say 'within a function'. I know about the 'global' keyword, as does everybody else that has used PHP for more than 5 minutes. If your language has a C like syntax and you have a default scope (which means that you can start executing code right from the first line without being in a function definition) then the default behaviour of a variable should be that it either does not exist inside a function (different scope) and throws an error or it should refer to the global variable. To have a 'third option', which silently creates empty variables is very (no, make that extremely) poor design. And no, I'm not telling how to break noprocrast :)
edw519 17y ago
The interesting thing here is that apparently the difference between PHP and the 'rest' of the languages out there is not large enough to supplant PHP in the WWW domain. Very astute observation. PHP doesn't have to be the best. It just has to be good enough to maintain it's place.

dpcan 17y ago

If you are trying to do something "more advanced", why are you trying to use PHP at all? What do you consider "advanced"? Just the WAY you use the language, or the application you are trying to write? PHP is trying really hard (it seems) to be a more advanced language, possibly to get new users to move over from other languages. But they don't need to. They should just stick to their roots, do what they do best: Super small learning curve, low barrier to entry, it's everywhere, it works great for most apps, keep CRUD super-simple.

lucasoman 17y ago
My biggest interest in PHP is job-related. I work for a large travel website whose software is all OO PHP. If it weren't for that, I'd probably be in Perl-, Ruby- or Python-land.
jamroom 17y ago
So far I have not personally run into anything I _can't_ do in PHP - it may take some creative thinking, but there is usually a solution - this includes "advanced" functionality as well. I think what a lot of the issues people have with PHP is not that it can't do something, but more that many of the ways you implement something feels like a "hack" - it works, but isn't as elegant as other languages.
dasil003 17y ago
I wish they would have put more effort into deprecation and cleaning up past messes instead of building new features to attract serious developers and making things even more of a mess.

thaumaturgy 17y ago

I usually don't jump into these kinds of threads. You get an awful lot of programmers -- some hobbyist, some professional, some experienced, and most of them self-taught -- all with their own prejudices and methodologies, all arguing over what the "right" way is. They go absolutely nowhere, do nothing productive, and turn into a huge time sink for everyone involved. That said, this article, and every other one like it, reeks of some strange belief that every single language is supposed to have all of the features of some programmer's favorite language, as well as all of the neat new trendy stuff, and if the language doesn't support all of that -- well then it's dead! Or dying. Or "a husk". There doesn't seem to be any realization on the part of the programmer that a particular language is just a tool, usually designed for a specific application. The programmer is attempting to fit a square peg into a round hole, and they're cursing at the square peg because it doesn't fit. Let's take one example: closures. They sounded interesting, and potentially could solve a problem in a large JavaScript library I was working on. So I got to know them, I practiced with them, I made sure I grokked them before trying to apply them. Then I put them to work, and found that they ended up making my library unnecessarily complex, that they caused some odd behaviors occasionally, and that they didn't solve any problem that I couldn't more easily solve using simpler methods. So, does PHP's lack of this author's favorite features really make it a "husk"? No, not at all. Applications as large and complex as osCommerce don't rely on those language features; they rely on the features that the language does have, and they work just fine. One of the most basic skills programmers need to have in their toolbox is the ability to adapt their habits according to the tools they're using. The programmers that spend their time writing blog posts like this one don't seem to have picked that up. ...Ugh, this just cost me 10 minutes that I could've spent actually working on one of my projects. :-(

lucasoman 17y ago
I'm not complaining about what features PHP has. In fact, I was never that annoyed that PHP didn't have lamdas or closures until now. My problem is that it wasn't implemented _correctly_. If you're going to implement a feature, do it right or don't do it at all. Their lack of concern or pride in their project does not bode well for the community.
- 17y ago

garnet7 17y ago

My guess is that many developers probably don't actually choose PHP per se but rather get stuck using it because that's what the shop they work for uses, or that's what the current site is implemented in and they're only adding a feature, or that's what the client is asking for, etc. More interesting to me is the question: Why is PHP beating Python in this space? Some guesses: * PHP webapps far easier to deploy. * PHP docs give more usage examples, and also allow user comments.

mjs 17y ago

The corresponding PHP bug report: http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=47665 http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=47665 (Closed as "not a bug". Surprise!)

shaunxcode 17y ago

I don't think the lambda and closure support was intended to mesh so succinctly object oriented features of php. You have to realize php is a multi-paradigm language and proceed accordingly. You can honestly implement your own oo system using arrays and anon functions/closures if you would like (much like perl). The only thing making it a little fugly/brutal is the HORRIBLE php "array(" syntax.

pyman 17y ago

Very mediocre post. Including the comments. "Use php, python, no, use ruby instead! Facebook uses PHP, YouTube Python, blah blah". Kids, kids, behave! Scripting languages are for kids and web developers who don't know anything about programming and software engineering. I've worked with Perl and Python developers for the last couple of years... they struggle to understand design patterns and don't even know what a domain object is.

pyman 17y ago

Very mediocre post. Including the comments. I think scripting languages are for kids and web developers who don't know anything about programming and software engineering. I've worked with Perl and Python developers for the last couple of years... they struggle to understand design patterns and don't even know what a domain object is.

pyman 17y ago

Very mediocre post. Including the comments. I think scripting languages are for kids and web developers who don't know anything about programming and software engineering. I've worked with Perl and Python developers for the last couple of years, they struggle to understand design patterns and don't even know what a domain object is.

pyman 17y ago

I think scripting languages are for kids and web developers who don't know anything about programming and software engineering. I've worked with Perl and Python developers for the last couple of years... they struggle to understand design patterns and don't even know what a domain object is.