6 ms·

What's the Open Connect program they mention? how does it work?

TheCapn 12y ago
www.netflix.com/openconnect
hackerguy0217 12y ago
ISPs can directly connect their networks to Open Connect for free. ISPs can do this either by free peering with us at common Internet exchanges, or can save even more transit costs by putting our free storage appliances in or near their network. Major ISPs around the world have already connected to Open Connect, including Frontier, British Telecom, TDC, Clearwire, GVT, Telus, Bell Canada, Virgin, Cablevision, Google Fiber, Telmex, and more https://www.netflix.com/openconnect https://www.netflix.com/openconnect
- Touche 12y ago
  Can you explain why ISPs should pay to run your servers in their network and not do the same for my personal homepage?
  - unreal37 12y ago
    First, you'd have to buy and build a server for each ISP containing that content and support it when things go wrong. Next, it would have to be cheaper for the ISP to host your server on their network than for them to upgrade their connections to the backbone to handle traffic to your site. If those two conditions are true, I am sure ISPs will accept your offer.
  - nathos 12y ago
    Because your homepage doesn't attract many TB of traffic?
    - Touche 12y ago
      So, bandwidth. What is the threshold with which ISPs should start giving out free hosting?
      - nitrogen 12y ago
        When the space and electricity for the hosting is cheaper than the transit costs they would otherwise incur.
      - criley2 12y ago
        It's not free hosting. It's not even hosting a webpage because it's not internet facing at all. Comcast customers can't visit the "free webpage" hosted on Verizon because it's not the internet we're discussing here. It's delivering a service to the local ISP network subscribers. The ISP is allowing Netflix to bring caches and servers to their interconnect so that the ISP can meet the demands of its users who are requesting that data. When should an ISP give out "free" things? When the quality of service for their customers requests depends on it. It's that simple: Customers request data, and ISPs have an obligation to deliver that data once it arrives at their local network. What you call "Free hosting" and "free upgrades", I call "upgrades for requested service paid for by my monthly bill". Because when I request data, and that data requires infrastructure to reach me adequately, then I am paying for that infrastructure by virtue of my monthly bill, and my decision to use part of my capped bandwidth on that service. Remember: residential internet is capped because "users must pay for their use, and infrastructure can't handle too much demand so we need to charge users to upgrade according to their usage pattern". So therefore, I'm paying for that Netflix interconnect, it's not free, I pay for it, because I pay for 300GB of data a month and all of the necessary infrastructure to deliver it!
      - Xylakant 12y ago
        When it's cheaper for them to host the caches a service offers than increasing their peering bandwidth. That's a fairly simple exercise for controlling.
      - danudey 12y ago
        It's not that they're providing free hosting. Netflix is providing hardware that ISPs can install in their own network locations (which they typically have plenty of). In exchange, their customers get better quality and ISPs don't spend their uplinks on Netflix content. It's pretty win-win for everyone.
  - alex_sf 12y ago
    That's a mischaracterization of the situation. ISPs complained about the amount of traffic originating from Netflix. This traffic was requested by the ISP's customers, and the bandwidth to carry it was promised by the ISP. But, still, the ISPs were unhappy. So Netflix approached them and said they are willing to offer local caches of Netflix content, for free, to any ISP that requested it to reduce network congestion. This was a gesture of good will by Netflix, not an attempt to outsource their hosting costs. It is, fiscally, a loss to Netflix because they need to purchase and maintain the storage appliances for open connect partners.
    - Titanous 12y ago
      Actually I don't think the fiscal loss is so clear-cut. Each deployment of cache nodes removes load/bandwidth from the rest of the CDN, and also reduces support time spent with customers. In fact, 100% of Netflix traffic outside the US and 90% inside the US is served from Open Connect[0]. It is actually a shift of the location of the serving hardware that allows both parties (the ISP and Netflix) to save on bandwidth. This is a net win for everyone. [0] http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/05/netflixs-many-pronged-plan-to-eliminate-video-playback-problems/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/05/netfli...
  - logfromblammo 12y ago
    Possibly because your homepage does not drive a third of Internet traffic, both from within the ISPs network and from without. The Internet is a collection of public and private networks. When it costs more to upgrade the linkages between your network and everyone else's than to host a server inside it, that is when the ISP should pay to support a local resource. You're comparing apples and oranges, really. If your website ever reaches the point where traffic starts to saturate an ISP's connections, I'm sure they would be willing to discuss a local CDN resource with you, too. Whether they offer to pay for that or charge you for it depends largely upon how stupid and/or greedy their management is.
- goatforce5 12y ago
  As I understand it, this is similar to one of the ways Akamai builds out it's network: http://www.akamai.com/html/partners/network_partner.html http://www.akamai.com/html/partners/network_partner.html
- criley2 12y ago
  Free is a misnomer and the misnomer that is driving this whole debate. There is a cost involved with peering, even if the peering relationship is "free". That cost is the crux of much of these issues today, as Verizon (and Comcast and others) feel that Netflix should pay for their own in-house upgrades, because Netflix is creating the need for those upgrades. Netflix argues, and I agree, that the customer is creating the demand for the data, and the customer is paying for access to the data, and the customer is paying for the infrastructure to get the data they're requesting. OpenConnect means "You're welcome to spend a bunch of money upgrading your interconnection to our free network"
  - commandar 12y ago
    This would be true if not for the second half of the program: >or can save even more transit costs by putting our free storage appliances in or near their network. They don't have to interconnect to anyone. Netflix is even offering them storage devices to keep the traffic internal to their own networks.
  - devicenull 12y ago
    > OpenConnect means "You're welcome to spend a bunch of money upgrading your interconnection to our free network" Or colo their equipment https://www.netflix.com/openconnect/hardware https://www.netflix.com/openconnect/hardware . If upgrading interconnects is such an expensive issue, surely these ISPs could find 4u somewhere to stick one of these boxes in?
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    Constantly upgrading telecoms infrastructure to cope with increasing demand is the only way to stay in business if you are a telecoms company, unless you have a monopoly. If they think realtime video is bad, they are really screwed in the long run.
    - hga 12y ago
      Quasi-realtime video has the special distinction of competing with their own video offerings, e.g. see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7873331 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7873331 for some Verizon numbers.
- kordless 12y ago
  Do you guys use IPv6 at all with your server/client connections?
- mcintyre1994 12y ago
  From your phrasing you work at Netflix right? Is it possible to get a full list of your Open Connect partners in a marketplace? In the competitive UK marketplace this could pretty easily be the difference in a purchasing decision for me.
- Terretta 12y ago
  Cablevision's Netflix offering is in fantastic "Super HD" because Cablevision did the right thing and let Netflix store and manage content inside Cablevision's network so it doesn't flow over peering edges. The quality is shocking. But then, Cablevision in general is shocking -- when you compare to most other cable ISPs. I can sustain 130+ megabits day or night on a 100 megabit service tier, with the reliability of dial tone. Other ISPs need to follow the Netflix/Cablevision partnership model. People who have that, worry about moving and losing it.
  - barrkel 12y ago
    As far as I'm aware, not all ISPs get that deal - the ISPs need to pay Netflix for it. There are four invariants as I see it: 1) Netflix is using a significant amount of a limited resource (bandwidth) 2) If Netflix doesn't work, consumers blame their ISP, not Netflix 3) The consumer is going to pay for this bandwidth, whether via ISP or Netflix 4) Consumers don't like caps or understand special packages that differentiate between packets routed one way or another If Netflix doesn't pay for this bandwidth, then ISPs need to pay for it - and consumers will pay more to their ISPs to cover these costs. That means that consumers that don't use Netflix will be subsidizing consumers who do use Netflix. IMO ISPs should charge Netflix so that Netflix can charge higher prices to users who are using more bandwidth via Netflix. That better reflects the link between who's using a limited resource and who's paying for it. Unfortunately, because of point (2) above, Netflix has quite a strong bargaining position.
damieng 12y ago
They also offer free hardware that caches and serves up the most popular content automagically. [)amien

www.netflix.com/openconnect

ISPs can directly connect their networks to Open Connect for free. ISPs can do this either by free peering with us at common Internet exchanges, or can save even more transit costs by putting our free storage appliances in or near their network. Major ISPs around the world have already connected to Open Connect, including Frontier, British Telecom, TDC, Clearwire, GVT, Telus, Bell Canada, Virgin, Cablevision, Google Fiber, Telmex, and more https://www.netflix.com/openconnect https://www.netflix.com/openconnect

Touche 12y ago
Can you explain why ISPs should pay to run your servers in their network and not do the same for my personal homepage?
- unreal37 12y ago
  First, you'd have to buy and build a server for each ISP containing that content and support it when things go wrong. Next, it would have to be cheaper for the ISP to host your server on their network than for them to upgrade their connections to the backbone to handle traffic to your site. If those two conditions are true, I am sure ISPs will accept your offer.
- nathos 12y ago
  Because your homepage doesn't attract many TB of traffic?
  - Touche 12y ago
    So, bandwidth. What is the threshold with which ISPs should start giving out free hosting?
    - nitrogen 12y ago
      When the space and electricity for the hosting is cheaper than the transit costs they would otherwise incur.
    - criley2 12y ago
      It's not free hosting. It's not even hosting a webpage because it's not internet facing at all. Comcast customers can't visit the "free webpage" hosted on Verizon because it's not the internet we're discussing here. It's delivering a service to the local ISP network subscribers. The ISP is allowing Netflix to bring caches and servers to their interconnect so that the ISP can meet the demands of its users who are requesting that data. When should an ISP give out "free" things? When the quality of service for their customers requests depends on it. It's that simple: Customers request data, and ISPs have an obligation to deliver that data once it arrives at their local network. What you call "Free hosting" and "free upgrades", I call "upgrades for requested service paid for by my monthly bill". Because when I request data, and that data requires infrastructure to reach me adequately, then I am paying for that infrastructure by virtue of my monthly bill, and my decision to use part of my capped bandwidth on that service. Remember: residential internet is capped because "users must pay for their use, and infrastructure can't handle too much demand so we need to charge users to upgrade according to their usage pattern". So therefore, I'm paying for that Netflix interconnect, it's not free, I pay for it, because I pay for 300GB of data a month and all of the necessary infrastructure to deliver it!
    - Xylakant 12y ago
      When it's cheaper for them to host the caches a service offers than increasing their peering bandwidth. That's a fairly simple exercise for controlling.
    - danudey 12y ago
      It's not that they're providing free hosting. Netflix is providing hardware that ISPs can install in their own network locations (which they typically have plenty of). In exchange, their customers get better quality and ISPs don't spend their uplinks on Netflix content. It's pretty win-win for everyone.
- alex_sf 12y ago
  That's a mischaracterization of the situation. ISPs complained about the amount of traffic originating from Netflix. This traffic was requested by the ISP's customers, and the bandwidth to carry it was promised by the ISP. But, still, the ISPs were unhappy. So Netflix approached them and said they are willing to offer local caches of Netflix content, for free, to any ISP that requested it to reduce network congestion. This was a gesture of good will by Netflix, not an attempt to outsource their hosting costs. It is, fiscally, a loss to Netflix because they need to purchase and maintain the storage appliances for open connect partners.
  - Titanous 12y ago
    Actually I don't think the fiscal loss is so clear-cut. Each deployment of cache nodes removes load/bandwidth from the rest of the CDN, and also reduces support time spent with customers. In fact, 100% of Netflix traffic outside the US and 90% inside the US is served from Open Connect[0]. It is actually a shift of the location of the serving hardware that allows both parties (the ISP and Netflix) to save on bandwidth. This is a net win for everyone. [0] http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/05/netflixs-many-pronged-plan-to-eliminate-video-playback-problems/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/05/netfli...
- logfromblammo 12y ago
  Possibly because your homepage does not drive a third of Internet traffic, both from within the ISPs network and from without. The Internet is a collection of public and private networks. When it costs more to upgrade the linkages between your network and everyone else's than to host a server inside it, that is when the ISP should pay to support a local resource. You're comparing apples and oranges, really. If your website ever reaches the point where traffic starts to saturate an ISP's connections, I'm sure they would be willing to discuss a local CDN resource with you, too. Whether they offer to pay for that or charge you for it depends largely upon how stupid and/or greedy their management is.
goatforce5 12y ago
As I understand it, this is similar to one of the ways Akamai builds out it's network: http://www.akamai.com/html/partners/network_partner.html http://www.akamai.com/html/partners/network_partner.html
criley2 12y ago
Free is a misnomer and the misnomer that is driving this whole debate. There is a cost involved with peering, even if the peering relationship is "free". That cost is the crux of much of these issues today, as Verizon (and Comcast and others) feel that Netflix should pay for their own in-house upgrades, because Netflix is creating the need for those upgrades. Netflix argues, and I agree, that the customer is creating the demand for the data, and the customer is paying for access to the data, and the customer is paying for the infrastructure to get the data they're requesting. OpenConnect means "You're welcome to spend a bunch of money upgrading your interconnection to our free network"
- commandar 12y ago
  This would be true if not for the second half of the program: >or can save even more transit costs by putting our free storage appliances in or near their network. They don't have to interconnect to anyone. Netflix is even offering them storage devices to keep the traffic internal to their own networks.
- devicenull 12y ago
  > OpenConnect means "You're welcome to spend a bunch of money upgrading your interconnection to our free network" Or colo their equipment https://www.netflix.com/openconnect/hardware https://www.netflix.com/openconnect/hardware . If upgrading interconnects is such an expensive issue, surely these ISPs could find 4u somewhere to stick one of these boxes in?
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  Constantly upgrading telecoms infrastructure to cope with increasing demand is the only way to stay in business if you are a telecoms company, unless you have a monopoly. If they think realtime video is bad, they are really screwed in the long run.
  - hga 12y ago
    Quasi-realtime video has the special distinction of competing with their own video offerings, e.g. see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7873331 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7873331 for some Verizon numbers.
kordless 12y ago
Do you guys use IPv6 at all with your server/client connections?
mcintyre1994 12y ago
From your phrasing you work at Netflix right? Is it possible to get a full list of your Open Connect partners in a marketplace? In the competitive UK marketplace this could pretty easily be the difference in a purchasing decision for me.
Terretta 12y ago
Cablevision's Netflix offering is in fantastic "Super HD" because Cablevision did the right thing and let Netflix store and manage content inside Cablevision's network so it doesn't flow over peering edges. The quality is shocking. But then, Cablevision in general is shocking -- when you compare to most other cable ISPs. I can sustain 130+ megabits day or night on a 100 megabit service tier, with the reliability of dial tone. Other ISPs need to follow the Netflix/Cablevision partnership model. People who have that, worry about moving and losing it.
- barrkel 12y ago
  As far as I'm aware, not all ISPs get that deal - the ISPs need to pay Netflix for it. There are four invariants as I see it: 1) Netflix is using a significant amount of a limited resource (bandwidth) 2) If Netflix doesn't work, consumers blame their ISP, not Netflix 3) The consumer is going to pay for this bandwidth, whether via ISP or Netflix 4) Consumers don't like caps or understand special packages that differentiate between packets routed one way or another If Netflix doesn't pay for this bandwidth, then ISPs need to pay for it - and consumers will pay more to their ISPs to cover these costs. That means that consumers that don't use Netflix will be subsidizing consumers who do use Netflix. IMO ISPs should charge Netflix so that Netflix can charge higher prices to users who are using more bandwidth via Netflix. That better reflects the link between who's using a limited resource and who's paying for it. Unfortunately, because of point (2) above, Netflix has quite a strong bargaining position.

damieng 12y ago

They also offer free hardware that caches and serves up the most popular content automagically. [)amien