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Interestingly the average salary for "computer systems design and programming" has gone down whilst the number of jobs have gone up. Says a lot about the motiv

by devbug 12y ago

Interestingly the average salary for "computer systems design and programming" has gone down whilst the number of jobs have gone up. Says a lot about the motives of the "altruistic" individuals who permeate the myth that "everyone can code."

chiph 12y ago
And they went down after the recession supposedly ended. Could have been supply + demand, I suppose.
Eliezer 12y ago
Hi! This is the Market Economics Fairy! I would like to respond to whatever it is you're thinking, but I honestly don't know what exactly you're thinking! Increasing the supply of something almost always makes the price go down relative to what it would be otherwise! But then more trades take place too, so more gains from trade are generated, which is wonderful! More people getting paid high programmer salaries can increase the average per-person salary across the whole economy, even if it means the price per programmer goes down! So it's totally consistent for an altruist who wants more people to be paid more to try to introduce more people to programming jobs! The same with decreasing unemployment across the whole economy and increasing unemployment among programmers! But I don't know if that's the part you were confused about! Sincerely, the Market Economics Fairy!
- eli_gottlieb 12y ago
  Uuuhhh, correct me if I'm wrong, but if the number of actual jobs are going up (rather than job openings), it means demand and supply rose roughly in tandem. On the other hand, there's simultaneously a lack of wage rises in most of the technology industry combined with extreme worker shortages in some parts of the industry, so it makes me think there's some vast inefficiency lurking somewhere keeping trades from clearing. My personal theory is: it's the Bay Area real estate markets. If we had a housing crunch in the place where companies want to hire workers that was observed to eat up most (though not all) available salary increases as increased rents, thus causing it to be uneconomical for employed experts in other areas to open their jobs by leaving for higher salaries in the industry's major center, leaving companies in the center locked in a zero-sum struggle to hire a shrinking pool of rich workers while increasing portions of the industry's labor force outside that one geographic area sit underutilized... it would look a lot like reality.
eabraham 12y ago
I think the high salaries are attracting a lot of the code school grads who lack a lot of the fundamentals of CS. Anecdotally, I see these grads take 25-30% pay cuts for a developer position and employers are happy to take the discount in exchange for "on-the-job" training.
josephschmoe 12y ago
Think of it this way: when you use one statistic to describe both software engineers and programmers, it's going to look bad when there's an explosion of programmers, even if the number of and pay for software engineers remained the same.
potatolicious 12y ago
These "altruistic" individuals seem to have increased the job base by ~70% without a large negative impact on salaries, which is still well, well above the national average, and still affords a very comfortable lifestyle. In other words, these "altruistic" individuals have vastly grown the number of people who can earn a comfortable life without large negative impact on the rest. So between these guys and yourself, who is altruistic, and who is "altruistic" with scare quotes? Who is creating greater good for more people, and who is watching out for themselves?

by devbug 12y ago

chiph 12y ago

And they went down after the recession supposedly ended. Could have been supply + demand, I suppose.

Eliezer 12y ago

Hi! This is the Market Economics Fairy! I would like to respond to whatever it is you're thinking, but I honestly don't know what exactly you're thinking! Increasing the supply of something almost always makes the price go down relative to what it would be otherwise! But then more trades take place too, so more gains from trade are generated, which is wonderful! More people getting paid high programmer salaries can increase the average per-person salary across the whole economy, even if it means the price per programmer goes down! So it's totally consistent for an altruist who wants more people to be paid more to try to introduce more people to programming jobs! The same with decreasing unemployment across the whole economy and increasing unemployment among programmers! But I don't know if that's the part you were confused about! Sincerely, the Market Economics Fairy!

eli_gottlieb 12y ago
Uuuhhh, correct me if I'm wrong, but if the number of actual jobs are going up (rather than job openings), it means demand and supply rose roughly in tandem. On the other hand, there's simultaneously a lack of wage rises in most of the technology industry combined with extreme worker shortages in some parts of the industry, so it makes me think there's some vast inefficiency lurking somewhere keeping trades from clearing. My personal theory is: it's the Bay Area real estate markets. If we had a housing crunch in the place where companies want to hire workers that was observed to eat up most (though not all) available salary increases as increased rents, thus causing it to be uneconomical for employed experts in other areas to open their jobs by leaving for higher salaries in the industry's major center, leaving companies in the center locked in a zero-sum struggle to hire a shrinking pool of rich workers while increasing portions of the industry's labor force outside that one geographic area sit underutilized... it would look a lot like reality.

eabraham 12y ago

I think the high salaries are attracting a lot of the code school grads who lack a lot of the fundamentals of CS. Anecdotally, I see these grads take 25-30% pay cuts for a developer position and employers are happy to take the discount in exchange for "on-the-job" training.

josephschmoe 12y ago

Think of it this way: when you use one statistic to describe both software engineers and programmers, it's going to look bad when there's an explosion of programmers, even if the number of and pay for software engineers remained the same.

potatolicious 12y ago

These "altruistic" individuals seem to have increased the job base by ~70% without a large negative impact on salaries, which is still well, well above the national average, and still affords a very comfortable lifestyle. In other words, these "altruistic" individuals have vastly grown the number of people who can earn a comfortable life without large negative impact on the rest. So between these guys and yourself, who is altruistic, and who is "altruistic" with scare quotes? Who is creating greater good for more people, and who is watching out for themselves?