7 ms·

Grid-connected Electric Buses Could Displace Diesels

35 points by EEGuy 12y ago

EEGuy 12y ago
Another concept for V2G possibilities, perhaps with more predictability and utility than personal vehicle V2G. No info on battery longevity, and the economic analysis assunes a 14-year vehicle lifespan.
stephengillie 12y ago
An electric-grid bus system is highly successful in Seattle. They reviewed the "trolleybus" system in 2011 and it continues to operate. http://metro.kingcounty.gov/up/projects/trolleyevaluation.html http://metro.kingcounty.gov/up/projects/trolleyevaluation.ht...
- hristov 12y ago
  Also in san francisco. Also all over eastern europe. These trolleybuses are really good in places with hills because electric engines have very nice fat torque curves. If you put an internal combustion engine bus on the hills of SF there will be a lot of smoke, noise and gear grinding. However the existing trolleybuses require overhead wires which are unsightly and become very expensive for places with lower population densities. This talks about running buses off batteries which is relatively new.
  - Decade 12y ago
    As a rider, the trolleys are my least favorite vehicles. In theory, electric is great, lots of torque, whatever. In practice, they're the slowest vehicles in MUNI's diverse fleet. Go too fast, and the trolley pole comes off the wire, and the driver has to walk back and reconnect it. Get stuck behind a slow driver, and you have a whole pile of buses moving glacially. My least favorite time was when I had to use either the 14 or the 49, depending on the destination, because they share a lot of the same route. The diesels work just fine on first or second gear, and the steepest hills with buses are diesel. I find especially amusing how the 29 scrapes the ground when it moves on and off from Excelsior Heights. The very steepest hills with public transportation have cable cars, obviously.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
- wcummings 12y ago
  Boston also has these, some are still diesel, though.
  - andrewliebchen 12y ago
    Cambridge, Watertown, and other cities and towns outside of Boston as well.
  - stephengillie 12y ago
    The electric buses constitute only a small fleet of one bus company, out of the handful operating in Seattle.
jarvuschris 12y ago
Funny that a guy named Firestone is hyping it, considering what happened the last time grid-connected electric vehicles became popular: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp...
- eli 12y ago
  ...allegedly. It's got "conspiracy" in the title for a reason.
  - lobster_johnson 12y ago
    The word "conspiracy" does not imply lack of evidence (although it's often used that way in popular culture). In fact, "conspiracy" is a legal term [1] describing an illegal act of collusion. And in this case, part of the conspiracy was confirmed by the court, and there were some convictions. From Wikipedia: In 1949, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California, Phillips Petroleum, GM and Mack Trucks were convicted of conspiring to monopolize the sale of buses and related products to local transit companies controlled by NCL and other companies ... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(civil) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(civil), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(criminal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(criminal)
vertex-four 12y ago
Here in the UK, most cities have at least some form of much-marketed hybrid bus. I'm not sure how much they save, but obviously there's an incentive to at least try it out.
- lobster_johnson 12y ago
  NYC, under Bloomberg, invested grandly in hybrid buses, but after several years the MTA decided to go back to diesel, blaming lack of reliability: http://www.ibtimes.com/new-york-city-scrapping-nearly-fourth-its-hybrid-bus-engines-100-diesel-bus-engines-1329977 http://www.ibtimes.com/new-york-city-scrapping-nearly-fourth...
walshemj 12y ago
You know I thought you where supposed to write about one thing at a time. This article is about two separate and almost totally unconnected things. 1 using hybrid vehicles as load balancers for grid (highly inefficient BTW) 2 replacing diesel busses with electric vehicles. BTW a grid connected bus is called a trolleybus.
- Moru 12y ago
  Here in Sweden we have some battery-buss that can travel 60 minutes on a 5 minute charge. It just stops at the end station for five minutes and then runs it's round again. Still on testing stage. Very comfortable and quiet, tried it last time I took the bus :-) http://hybricon.se/word/projects/buses/ http://hybricon.se/word/projects/buses/
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    That's extremely nicely packaged tech. Thanks for posting this. Electrical buses have been around just about forever but this is by far the nicest integrated whole that I've seen.
    - Moru 12y ago
      Glad you liked it! When you ride the bus you get a nice lecture in english and swedish by the busdriver that functions like an adverticement pillar for the company. The bus goes to/from the airport and passes by the university so I guess they know what customers they have :-)
  - walshemj 12y ago
    Interesting especially the way the use the pantograph to do the charging well away from the passengers.
tomohawk 12y ago
Seems like hydraulic hybrids would be a good fit, too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_hybrid http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_hybrid I think existing buses can be retrofitted for a modest price.
Shivetya 12y ago
Considering what school systems pay in fuel bills I am surprised there isn't more effort made at state if not national levels in the US to come up with an affordable if not subsidized by the Fed electric school bus. It would eliminate the hazards of diesel/gasoline fumes for students; it has been measured that inside the parked bus actually can be worse than outside so many districts forbid parked buses from idling. Throw in the sheer amount of fuel used and they should recoup their costs. However I expect some to go the natural gas route as its known and cheaper.
- ams6110 12y ago
  Our local school system looked into hybrid buses a few years ago. Amazingly they did a rather unbiased analysis and found that there was not a financial advantage to be realized and they stayed with conventional gasoline and diesel buses. Natural gas is likely the cleaner but still practical compromise. Remember school buses are also used for things such as transporting athletic teams, bands, orchestras, etc. to events that are farther away than the range of an electric vehicle.
  - ensignavenger 12y ago
    That would be an interesting analysis to see- any chance you could get a copy and post it? "...school buses are also used for things such as transporting athletic teams, bands, orchestras, etc..." I don't think many schools need their entire fleet to be able to transport students long distances. They could convert some, or maybe even most, of the buses to electric, depending on the circumstances.
  - jessaustin 12y ago
    ...events that are farther away than the range of an electric vehicle. This would be a reason to have four or five conventional-fuel vehicles. 90% of most fleets could still be shorter-range.
jmspring 12y ago
This reminds me of he guy who hacked to prius to run on the Muni lines in SF -- http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/4717-hacked-prius-running-on-muni-power-lines http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/4717-hacked-prius-runn...
- userbinator 12y ago
  Unfortunately it was an April Fools, but Trollius would've been a great name for it.

35 points by EEGuy 12y ago

EEGuy 12y ago

Another concept for V2G possibilities, perhaps with more predictability and utility than personal vehicle V2G. No info on battery longevity, and the economic analysis assunes a 14-year vehicle lifespan.

stephengillie 12y ago

An electric-grid bus system is highly successful in Seattle. They reviewed the "trolleybus" system in 2011 and it continues to operate. http://metro.kingcounty.gov/up/projects/trolleyevaluation.html http://metro.kingcounty.gov/up/projects/trolleyevaluation.ht...

hristov 12y ago
Also in san francisco. Also all over eastern europe. These trolleybuses are really good in places with hills because electric engines have very nice fat torque curves. If you put an internal combustion engine bus on the hills of SF there will be a lot of smoke, noise and gear grinding. However the existing trolleybuses require overhead wires which are unsightly and become very expensive for places with lower population densities. This talks about running buses off batteries which is relatively new.
- Decade 12y ago
  As a rider, the trolleys are my least favorite vehicles. In theory, electric is great, lots of torque, whatever. In practice, they're the slowest vehicles in MUNI's diverse fleet. Go too fast, and the trolley pole comes off the wire, and the driver has to walk back and reconnect it. Get stuck behind a slow driver, and you have a whole pile of buses moving glacially. My least favorite time was when I had to use either the 14 or the 49, depending on the destination, because they share a lot of the same route. The diesels work just fine on first or second gear, and the steepest hills with buses are diesel. I find especially amusing how the 29 scrapes the ground when it moves on and off from Excelsior Heights. The very steepest hills with public transportation have cable cars, obviously.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
wcummings 12y ago
Boston also has these, some are still diesel, though.
- andrewliebchen 12y ago
  Cambridge, Watertown, and other cities and towns outside of Boston as well.
- stephengillie 12y ago
  The electric buses constitute only a small fleet of one bus company, out of the handful operating in Seattle.

jarvuschris 12y ago

Funny that a guy named Firestone is hyping it, considering what happened the last time grid-connected electric vehicles became popular: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp...

eli 12y ago
...allegedly. It's got "conspiracy" in the title for a reason.
- lobster_johnson 12y ago
  The word "conspiracy" does not imply lack of evidence (although it's often used that way in popular culture). In fact, "conspiracy" is a legal term [1] describing an illegal act of collusion. And in this case, part of the conspiracy was confirmed by the court, and there were some convictions. From Wikipedia: In 1949, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California, Phillips Petroleum, GM and Mack Trucks were convicted of conspiring to monopolize the sale of buses and related products to local transit companies controlled by NCL and other companies ... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(civil) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(civil), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(criminal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(criminal)

vertex-four 12y ago

Here in the UK, most cities have at least some form of much-marketed hybrid bus. I'm not sure how much they save, but obviously there's an incentive to at least try it out.

lobster_johnson 12y ago
NYC, under Bloomberg, invested grandly in hybrid buses, but after several years the MTA decided to go back to diesel, blaming lack of reliability: http://www.ibtimes.com/new-york-city-scrapping-nearly-fourth-its-hybrid-bus-engines-100-diesel-bus-engines-1329977 http://www.ibtimes.com/new-york-city-scrapping-nearly-fourth...

walshemj 12y ago

You know I thought you where supposed to write about one thing at a time. This article is about two separate and almost totally unconnected things. 1 using hybrid vehicles as load balancers for grid (highly inefficient BTW) 2 replacing diesel busses with electric vehicles. BTW a grid connected bus is called a trolleybus.

Moru 12y ago
Here in Sweden we have some battery-buss that can travel 60 minutes on a 5 minute charge. It just stops at the end station for five minutes and then runs it's round again. Still on testing stage. Very comfortable and quiet, tried it last time I took the bus :-) http://hybricon.se/word/projects/buses/ http://hybricon.se/word/projects/buses/
- jacquesm 12y ago
  That's extremely nicely packaged tech. Thanks for posting this. Electrical buses have been around just about forever but this is by far the nicest integrated whole that I've seen.
  - Moru 12y ago
    Glad you liked it! When you ride the bus you get a nice lecture in english and swedish by the busdriver that functions like an adverticement pillar for the company. The bus goes to/from the airport and passes by the university so I guess they know what customers they have :-)
- walshemj 12y ago
  Interesting especially the way the use the pantograph to do the charging well away from the passengers.

tomohawk 12y ago

Seems like hydraulic hybrids would be a good fit, too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_hybrid http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_hybrid I think existing buses can be retrofitted for a modest price.

Shivetya 12y ago

Considering what school systems pay in fuel bills I am surprised there isn't more effort made at state if not national levels in the US to come up with an affordable if not subsidized by the Fed electric school bus. It would eliminate the hazards of diesel/gasoline fumes for students; it has been measured that inside the parked bus actually can be worse than outside so many districts forbid parked buses from idling. Throw in the sheer amount of fuel used and they should recoup their costs. However I expect some to go the natural gas route as its known and cheaper.

ams6110 12y ago
Our local school system looked into hybrid buses a few years ago. Amazingly they did a rather unbiased analysis and found that there was not a financial advantage to be realized and they stayed with conventional gasoline and diesel buses. Natural gas is likely the cleaner but still practical compromise. Remember school buses are also used for things such as transporting athletic teams, bands, orchestras, etc. to events that are farther away than the range of an electric vehicle.
- ensignavenger 12y ago
  That would be an interesting analysis to see- any chance you could get a copy and post it? "...school buses are also used for things such as transporting athletic teams, bands, orchestras, etc..." I don't think many schools need their entire fleet to be able to transport students long distances. They could convert some, or maybe even most, of the buses to electric, depending on the circumstances.
- jessaustin 12y ago
  ...events that are farther away than the range of an electric vehicle. This would be a reason to have four or five conventional-fuel vehicles. 90% of most fleets could still be shorter-range.

jmspring 12y ago

This reminds me of he guy who hacked to prius to run on the Muni lines in SF -- http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/4717-hacked-prius-running-on-muni-power-lines http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/4717-hacked-prius-runn...

userbinator 12y ago
Unfortunately it was an April Fools, but Trollius would've been a great name for it.