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So poor people can suffer in the public hospitals and rich people can buy the very best care their money can provide? How is that a good thing? I seriously don

by wmgries 12y ago

So poor people can suffer in the public hospitals and rich people can buy the very best care their money can provide? How is that a good thing? I seriously don't understand what's wrong with a system where the government gives people money to participate in a truly free market (see comment in a sibling reply about how the US market is not currently free). This is the best system: everybody is covered and there's no big, lumbering, inefficient government running the show.

adwf 12y ago
Because healthcare shouldn't ever be a free market. A free market implies that a doctor should be charging as much as he can get for a procedure in order to maximise his profits. Standard econ 101 stuff. However, when someone is dying, they'd happily spend every penny they have even if it's just for simple cheap antibiotics. Therefore, you can't let the standard "the price is what people are willing to pay" economics take control. Healthcare cannot ever be a free market in a just, moral society. That's not to mention the socio-economic aspect of the healthcare system. If people are dying simply because a procedure is being charged at its free market value, then the poorer end of your workforce will be decimated. And yet, the poorer end make up the vast majority of jobs! Socialised healthcare of some sort is absolutely essential to a well functioning society. The obvious counter argument is that I could pay for my highly skilled, valuable workers to have private healthcare. The free market at work! But what about the people who don't work for me yet are essential to my business? How do I ensure the guys who build and maintain my roads survive that potentially dangerous job? How do I ensure that the guys who take my trash out are covered? These are all fairly low paying jobs where the downward wage pressure would push them into not being covered. Yet these people are absolutely essential to my business running. Then there's my customers. I try and sell to all walks of life, rich and poor. Where's my market if all the poor are dying due to not affording healthcare? /rant over There's just so many reasons why free market healthcare is bad. Socialised healthcare isn't just good morally, it's good for business too.
- wmgries 12y ago
  I don't think that you understand "econ 101" as well as you think you do. If markets worked like you described, nobody would be able to afford to buy anything. Yes, suppliers try to maximize the price they get for what they're selling but somebody has to pay for it. That's what drives the price down - if almost all the doctors charge $x for something and one guy charges $x-1, all the sudden people start flocking to him and he makes more money. In a truly competitive market, long term profits are zero (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_competition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_competition) because everybody sells their goods at exactly what it costs to manufacture them because that's the only way to sell any units at all. Of course I'm not claiming that health care can be perfectly competitive - there are many reasons why it can't be. But there's no reason why the current market needs to be noncompetitive. Furthermore, as I've said up and down this thread, I'm not opposed to funding poor people's private care through government subsidy. The important piece is that the people participate in the free market and can choose how to use the money - not where the money comes from. This is how this discussion started in the first place - I believe the government should just give veterans money for health care instead of trying to actually provide it. Having one central administration for a whole sector of the economy is inefficient. The Soviets thoroughly proved this with their (mis)adventures in central planning. Fostering free markets aren't just good morally, they promote better outcomes for patients and more innovation in the sector.
thirsteh 12y ago
Poor people don't suffer in public hospitals in Europe. Also, in most countries, the government pays for specialty private care when necessary (it often isn't, since doctors make a very good living in the public system.)
gnaritas 12y ago
The market isn't the solution to every problem, it is in fact sometimes immoral to solve a problem with the market because money is sometimes not the correct incentive. Healthcare should not be a free market issue, the quality of your care should not depend on the depth of your wallet, nor should it be profitable to deny service to those in need of them.

by wmgries 12y ago

adwf 12y ago

Because healthcare shouldn't ever be a free market. A free market implies that a doctor should be charging as much as he can get for a procedure in order to maximise his profits. Standard econ 101 stuff. However, when someone is dying, they'd happily spend every penny they have even if it's just for simple cheap antibiotics. Therefore, you can't let the standard "the price is what people are willing to pay" economics take control. Healthcare cannot ever be a free market in a just, moral society. That's not to mention the socio-economic aspect of the healthcare system. If people are dying simply because a procedure is being charged at its free market value, then the poorer end of your workforce will be decimated. And yet, the poorer end make up the vast majority of jobs! Socialised healthcare of some sort is absolutely essential to a well functioning society. The obvious counter argument is that I could pay for my highly skilled, valuable workers to have private healthcare. The free market at work! But what about the people who don't work for me yet are essential to my business? How do I ensure the guys who build and maintain my roads survive that potentially dangerous job? How do I ensure that the guys who take my trash out are covered? These are all fairly low paying jobs where the downward wage pressure would push them into not being covered. Yet these people are absolutely essential to my business running. Then there's my customers. I try and sell to all walks of life, rich and poor. Where's my market if all the poor are dying due to not affording healthcare? /rant over There's just so many reasons why free market healthcare is bad. Socialised healthcare isn't just good morally, it's good for business too.

wmgries 12y ago
I don't think that you understand "econ 101" as well as you think you do. If markets worked like you described, nobody would be able to afford to buy anything. Yes, suppliers try to maximize the price they get for what they're selling but somebody has to pay for it. That's what drives the price down - if almost all the doctors charge $x for something and one guy charges $x-1, all the sudden people start flocking to him and he makes more money. In a truly competitive market, long term profits are zero (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_competition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_competition) because everybody sells their goods at exactly what it costs to manufacture them because that's the only way to sell any units at all. Of course I'm not claiming that health care can be perfectly competitive - there are many reasons why it can't be. But there's no reason why the current market needs to be noncompetitive. Furthermore, as I've said up and down this thread, I'm not opposed to funding poor people's private care through government subsidy. The important piece is that the people participate in the free market and can choose how to use the money - not where the money comes from. This is how this discussion started in the first place - I believe the government should just give veterans money for health care instead of trying to actually provide it. Having one central administration for a whole sector of the economy is inefficient. The Soviets thoroughly proved this with their (mis)adventures in central planning. Fostering free markets aren't just good morally, they promote better outcomes for patients and more innovation in the sector.

thirsteh 12y ago

Poor people don't suffer in public hospitals in Europe. Also, in most countries, the government pays for specialty private care when necessary (it often isn't, since doctors make a very good living in the public system.)

gnaritas 12y ago

The market isn't the solution to every problem, it is in fact sometimes immoral to solve a problem with the market because money is sometimes not the correct incentive. Healthcare should not be a free market issue, the quality of your care should not depend on the depth of your wallet, nor should it be profitable to deny service to those in need of them.