9 ms·

Toward a Pill That Helps Us Learn as Fast as Kids

66 points by coltr 12y ago

patriciawright 12y ago
I'm always amazed how we don't look at our diets before resorting to drugs to treat conditions. What you eat has the largest effect on your brain chemistry.
- jimmar 12y ago
  For amblyopia (lazy eye) mentioned in the article, diet doesn't do anything. Diet doesn't do much for neurodegenerative disorders, either. Today, when you get alzheimer's, it only gets worse. You can't eat a lot of blueberries and suddenly regain brain function. I thought the article was good. It didn't overhype any expectations of the drugs being tested. The research appears to be proceeding cautiously, but optimistically.
  - patriciawright 12y ago
    It's not about eating a lot of fruits to suddenly regain brain function. Take a look at the research on how the average diet of carbs and process foods affects our body. A ketogenic diet has shown to increase brain function in a recent study. I'll try to find it and post here.
    - Nursie 12y ago
      OR a normal diet and some drugs. Why not figure it out both ways?
    - sizzle 12y ago
      Yeah but once you start exhibiting the symptoms of a neurodegenerative disorder, it's far too late for you because the damage has been taking place for many years prior. Understanding the diseased brain and using drugs to reverse/attack the root causes of neurodegenerative disorders will help further humanity no doubt. The ketogenic diet does seem to help from what I've read though, so that in conjunction with drugs could be big.
- catshirt 12y ago
  >> I'm always amazed how we don't look at our diets before resorting to drugs to treat conditions these aren't mutually exclusive. you seem to be suggesting no one is studying how diet affects brain function?
- sizzle 12y ago
  ummmm, how do you explain learning/brain disorders stemming from childhood? Neuroplasticity- how the brain is wired (neutral pathways), is a more plausible explanation for dysfunction in our lives. fMRI scans can confirm where activity is taking place in the neurotypical brain as opposed to those who suffer from disorders. What you eat is not going to magically repair the activity in these parts of the brain.
- amirmc 12y ago
  I thoroughly agree with the second sentence but by putting it together with the first, it's as though you're claiming we can treat medical conditions just by changing diets (which I disagree with -- but I don't think you deserve the downvotes you seem to be getting). What you eat absolutely affects brain chemistry. Eg friends of mine in grad school were studying depression via tryptophan depletion. They'd give volunteers a homemade protein drink which would reliably knock down serotonin levels. In other words, a milkshake that made you depressed. No drugs required.
  - pliny 12y ago
    >What you eat absolutely affects brain chemistry. Eg friends of mine in grad school were studying depression via tryptophan depletion. They'd give volunteers a homemade protein drink which would reliably knock down serotonin levels. In other words, a milkshake that made you depressed. No drugs required. They tried to induce depression? That's prison camp science, do your friends study at the Josef Mengele memorial faculty of Medicine?
    - amirmc 12y ago
      No, they're at the University of Cambridge, working with volunteers who've provided informed consent as part of an ethically approved study. An example of one of the papers is below [1]. The serotonin reduction I'm referring to is temporary. [1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2775933/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2775933/
mck- 12y ago
Limitless. Go watch it if you haven't
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- patriciawright 12y ago
  Limitless was based on Modafinil (a real-life nootropic you buy). You can read more about it here: http://www.brightjourney.com/q/physical-hacks-diet-nootropics-use-focused-mentally http://www.brightjourney.com/q/physical-hacks-diet-nootropic...
  - kranner 12y ago
    I asked Alan Glynn (the author of The Dark Fields / Limitless) two days ago on twitter if he had based it on Modafinil. His reply (in a public tweet): "Thanks - no, all made up, wrote it nearly 15 yrs ago, before I'd heard of modafinil, certainly before the nootropic boom."
revelation 12y ago
Donepezil is a cholinesterase inhibitor, meaning it increases the amount of acetylcholine circulating around nerve endings. They just casually put that there, but I don't think most readers will be exactly familiar with what that means? It's basically raising the baselevel of what is one of the most common neurotransmitters. It's a carpet-bomb, not the targeted strike the article makes it out to be.
- derefr 12y ago
  If I recall, isn't caffeine (effectively) an cholinesterase inhibitor?
  - jey 12y ago
    No, it's primarily an adenosine antagonist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine#Mechanism_of_action http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine#Mechanism_of_action
    - derefr 12y ago
      Right, that's why I said "effectively": caffeine inhibits adenosine from inhibiting cholinesterase (which itself inhibits acetylcholine.) Isn't biology fun?
      - jey 12y ago
        That may be true, but the difference is that caffeine doesn't inhibit cholinesterase across the board.
- hyperion2010 12y ago
  Sarin and VX are also irreversible cholinesterase inhibitors. And yes, any pharmacological manipulation should be viewed as a systematic and extremely nonspecific manipulation that will virtually always have unintended side effects.
b6 12y ago
> children younger than about 7 can pick up new skills, like language and music, much faster than adults can. I don't think this is true. I think a determined adult learns faster.
- catshirt 12y ago
  i'm having a hard time sourcing either side of the argument, but kids learn a ton of shit. an adult learning a language has the benefit of both abstract and pragmatic knowledge of language, having spoken at least one for some time. they don't need to spend time learning, for example, how to move their tongue to make different noises. an adult learning a language also has the benefit of being able to read, or listen, to facilitate their learning. a child learns a language without any of this groundwork. i feel like maybe you are underestimating the sheer amount of information a child has to process and how completely foreign everything we take for granted is to them.
  - sizzle 12y ago
    I remember learning about a study in a neuroscience class regarding language and how, before the critical period in a child's mind, they could learn many languages because their brain had not settled on any one particular language. The "shape" of words (word length, voxels, parts of speech etc) effectively became hard coded in their minds after the critical period ended so they could easily recognize that language, but from then on they can't learn languages easily as precritical period. Anyone familiar with the topic care to further elaborate on this phenomenon? thanks
    - catshirt 12y ago
      this sibling comment seems to be a good start: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7491549 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7491549
      - sizzle 12y ago
        thank you, I'll find the peer reviewed paper in the Wikipedia footnotesm
tomstokes 12y ago
Before anyone considers experimenting with Donepezil or other acetylcholinesterase inhibitors in hopes of enhancing their learning, it should be noted that there are plenty of unknowns and a few serious concerns around altering the cholinesterase levels of otherwise healthy adults. Briefly: Acetylcholinesterase terminates acetylcholine neurotransmission events by deactivating the acetylcholine, allowing it to be reused. An acetylcholinesterase inhibitor such as the Donepezil used in the article inhibits the action of acetylcholinesterase, which in turn enhances acetylcholine neurotransmission in a dose-dependent manner. Highly potent acetylcholinesterase inhibitors are used as poisons (Sarin gas, for example) because they interfere with all of the acetylcholine-based neurotransmission that happens throughout your brain and body. Less potent inhibitors are used at lower doses in Alzheimer's disease as it is hoped that they will improve cognitive function and perhaps even slow disease progression. Thus far the results have been mixed. Now the bad news: Cholinergic neurotransmission is widespread through your brain and your body. Acetylcholinesterase inhibitors are a very blunt and non-specific way to manipulate that neurotransmission. Unfortunately, you can't just enhance memory formation and learning related neurotransmission, you amplifiy cholinergic transmission indiscriminately everywhere. As a result, it's possible to get some quite negative effects as well. There are reports of acetylcholinesterase inhibitors causing or at least inducing PTSD-like symptoms ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17308243 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17308243 ). Furthermore, we just don't know the long-term effects of these medications on young, healthy adults as they've primarily been studied in elderly populations. In short: It's potentially very unwise to use Donepezil or similar medications for the purposes of enhancing your learning or your memory. Leave the experimentation to the carefully controlled studies until more is known on these powerful substances.
- alex_doom 12y ago
  Questionable science? Sign me up! I bet if I wash down a Donepezil with my Soylent every morning I'll be king of the valley.
- auctiontheory 12y ago
  Don't give up - there is help. Reach out to your local chapter of Sesquipedalians Anonymous.
sanxiyn 12y ago
In reinforcement learning, you are supposed to have large learning rate at the beginning and smaller and smaller learning rate as you go, eventually reaching zero. It would make sense for brain to use similar strategy. In unusual cases temporarily tweaking learning rate can be profitable, and it could apply to brain too.
- wyager 12y ago
  >large learning rate at the beginning and smaller and smaller learning rate as you go, eventually reaching zero. It would make sense for brain to use similar strategy. Maybe if we were still cavemen living in a technologically stagnant world. The world is changing extremely fast. Humanity needs neuroplasticity boosters to keep up.
hydralist 12y ago
take molly
- arthurcolle 12y ago
  Can you leave Hacker News? Thanks
  - dang 12y ago
    We ban people who personally attack other users. Your comment was worse than the one you replied to.
    - hydralist 12y ago
      my boy! #hero
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
      - dang 12y ago
        Not at all! I was speaking only generally. It would surely be excessive to first scold someone and then ban them. Please understand that I didn't mean to pick on you personally. Our goal is to send feedback signals into the community generally, and it's only about content, never individuals. The comment you replied to was of course very bad, and we appreciate your looking out for the integrity of HN. The better way to do that would be to simply downvote the bad comment, or, in extreme cases, flag it. And you can always email us at hn@ycombinator.com.
        arthurcolle 12y ago
        I completely understand the logic and appreciate the response. I'll keep my future comments content-oriented and keep that in mind. I was pretty surprised when pg instituted the pending comments but I think I'm beginning to see where the idea came from...
sizzle 12y ago
*neural pathways

66 points by coltr 12y ago

I'm always amazed how we don't look at our diets before resorting to drugs to treat conditions. What you eat has the largest effect on your brain chemistry.

jimmar 12y ago
For amblyopia (lazy eye) mentioned in the article, diet doesn't do anything. Diet doesn't do much for neurodegenerative disorders, either. Today, when you get alzheimer's, it only gets worse. You can't eat a lot of blueberries and suddenly regain brain function. I thought the article was good. It didn't overhype any expectations of the drugs being tested. The research appears to be proceeding cautiously, but optimistically.
- patriciawright 12y ago
  It's not about eating a lot of fruits to suddenly regain brain function. Take a look at the research on how the average diet of carbs and process foods affects our body. A ketogenic diet has shown to increase brain function in a recent study. I'll try to find it and post here.
  - Nursie 12y ago
    OR a normal diet and some drugs. Why not figure it out both ways?
  - sizzle 12y ago
    Yeah but once you start exhibiting the symptoms of a neurodegenerative disorder, it's far too late for you because the damage has been taking place for many years prior. Understanding the diseased brain and using drugs to reverse/attack the root causes of neurodegenerative disorders will help further humanity no doubt. The ketogenic diet does seem to help from what I've read though, so that in conjunction with drugs could be big.
catshirt 12y ago
>> I'm always amazed how we don't look at our diets before resorting to drugs to treat conditions these aren't mutually exclusive. you seem to be suggesting no one is studying how diet affects brain function?
sizzle 12y ago
ummmm, how do you explain learning/brain disorders stemming from childhood? Neuroplasticity- how the brain is wired (neutral pathways), is a more plausible explanation for dysfunction in our lives. fMRI scans can confirm where activity is taking place in the neurotypical brain as opposed to those who suffer from disorders. What you eat is not going to magically repair the activity in these parts of the brain.
amirmc 12y ago
I thoroughly agree with the second sentence but by putting it together with the first, it's as though you're claiming we can treat medical conditions just by changing diets (which I disagree with -- but I don't think you deserve the downvotes you seem to be getting). What you eat absolutely affects brain chemistry. Eg friends of mine in grad school were studying depression via tryptophan depletion. They'd give volunteers a homemade protein drink which would reliably knock down serotonin levels. In other words, a milkshake that made you depressed. No drugs required.
- pliny 12y ago
  >What you eat absolutely affects brain chemistry. Eg friends of mine in grad school were studying depression via tryptophan depletion. They'd give volunteers a homemade protein drink which would reliably knock down serotonin levels. In other words, a milkshake that made you depressed. No drugs required. They tried to induce depression? That's prison camp science, do your friends study at the Josef Mengele memorial faculty of Medicine?
  - amirmc 12y ago
    No, they're at the University of Cambridge, working with volunteers who've provided informed consent as part of an ethically approved study. An example of one of the papers is below [1]. The serotonin reduction I'm referring to is temporary. [1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2775933/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2775933/

mck- 12y ago

Limitless. Go watch it if you haven't

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
patriciawright 12y ago
Limitless was based on Modafinil (a real-life nootropic you buy). You can read more about it here: http://www.brightjourney.com/q/physical-hacks-diet-nootropics-use-focused-mentally http://www.brightjourney.com/q/physical-hacks-diet-nootropic...
- kranner 12y ago
  I asked Alan Glynn (the author of The Dark Fields / Limitless) two days ago on twitter if he had based it on Modafinil. His reply (in a public tweet): "Thanks - no, all made up, wrote it nearly 15 yrs ago, before I'd heard of modafinil, certainly before the nootropic boom."

revelation 12y ago

Donepezil is a cholinesterase inhibitor, meaning it increases the amount of acetylcholine circulating around nerve endings. They just casually put that there, but I don't think most readers will be exactly familiar with what that means? It's basically raising the baselevel of what is one of the most common neurotransmitters. It's a carpet-bomb, not the targeted strike the article makes it out to be.

derefr 12y ago
If I recall, isn't caffeine (effectively) an cholinesterase inhibitor?
- jey 12y ago
  No, it's primarily an adenosine antagonist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine#Mechanism_of_action http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine#Mechanism_of_action
  - derefr 12y ago
    Right, that's why I said "effectively": caffeine inhibits adenosine from inhibiting cholinesterase (which itself inhibits acetylcholine.) Isn't biology fun?
    - jey 12y ago
      That may be true, but the difference is that caffeine doesn't inhibit cholinesterase across the board.
hyperion2010 12y ago
Sarin and VX are also irreversible cholinesterase inhibitors. And yes, any pharmacological manipulation should be viewed as a systematic and extremely nonspecific manipulation that will virtually always have unintended side effects.

b6 12y ago

> children younger than about 7 can pick up new skills, like language and music, much faster than adults can. I don't think this is true. I think a determined adult learns faster.

catshirt 12y ago
i'm having a hard time sourcing either side of the argument, but kids learn a ton of shit. an adult learning a language has the benefit of both abstract and pragmatic knowledge of language, having spoken at least one for some time. they don't need to spend time learning, for example, how to move their tongue to make different noises. an adult learning a language also has the benefit of being able to read, or listen, to facilitate their learning. a child learns a language without any of this groundwork. i feel like maybe you are underestimating the sheer amount of information a child has to process and how completely foreign everything we take for granted is to them.
- sizzle 12y ago
  I remember learning about a study in a neuroscience class regarding language and how, before the critical period in a child's mind, they could learn many languages because their brain had not settled on any one particular language. The "shape" of words (word length, voxels, parts of speech etc) effectively became hard coded in their minds after the critical period ended so they could easily recognize that language, but from then on they can't learn languages easily as precritical period. Anyone familiar with the topic care to further elaborate on this phenomenon? thanks
  - catshirt 12y ago
    this sibling comment seems to be a good start: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7491549 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7491549
    - sizzle 12y ago
      thank you, I'll find the peer reviewed paper in the Wikipedia footnotesm

tomstokes 12y ago

Before anyone considers experimenting with Donepezil or other acetylcholinesterase inhibitors in hopes of enhancing their learning, it should be noted that there are plenty of unknowns and a few serious concerns around altering the cholinesterase levels of otherwise healthy adults. Briefly: Acetylcholinesterase terminates acetylcholine neurotransmission events by deactivating the acetylcholine, allowing it to be reused. An acetylcholinesterase inhibitor such as the Donepezil used in the article inhibits the action of acetylcholinesterase, which in turn enhances acetylcholine neurotransmission in a dose-dependent manner. Highly potent acetylcholinesterase inhibitors are used as poisons (Sarin gas, for example) because they interfere with all of the acetylcholine-based neurotransmission that happens throughout your brain and body. Less potent inhibitors are used at lower doses in Alzheimer's disease as it is hoped that they will improve cognitive function and perhaps even slow disease progression. Thus far the results have been mixed. Now the bad news: Cholinergic neurotransmission is widespread through your brain and your body. Acetylcholinesterase inhibitors are a very blunt and non-specific way to manipulate that neurotransmission. Unfortunately, you can't just enhance memory formation and learning related neurotransmission, you amplifiy cholinergic transmission indiscriminately everywhere. As a result, it's possible to get some quite negative effects as well. There are reports of acetylcholinesterase inhibitors causing or at least inducing PTSD-like symptoms ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17308243 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17308243 ). Furthermore, we just don't know the long-term effects of these medications on young, healthy adults as they've primarily been studied in elderly populations. In short: It's potentially very unwise to use Donepezil or similar medications for the purposes of enhancing your learning or your memory. Leave the experimentation to the carefully controlled studies until more is known on these powerful substances.

alex_doom 12y ago
Questionable science? Sign me up! I bet if I wash down a Donepezil with my Soylent every morning I'll be king of the valley.
auctiontheory 12y ago
Don't give up - there is help. Reach out to your local chapter of Sesquipedalians Anonymous.

sanxiyn 12y ago

In reinforcement learning, you are supposed to have large learning rate at the beginning and smaller and smaller learning rate as you go, eventually reaching zero. It would make sense for brain to use similar strategy. In unusual cases temporarily tweaking learning rate can be profitable, and it could apply to brain too.

wyager 12y ago
>large learning rate at the beginning and smaller and smaller learning rate as you go, eventually reaching zero. It would make sense for brain to use similar strategy. Maybe if we were still cavemen living in a technologically stagnant world. The world is changing extremely fast. Humanity needs neuroplasticity boosters to keep up.

hydralist 12y ago

take molly

arthurcolle 12y ago
Can you leave Hacker News? Thanks
- dang 12y ago
  We ban people who personally attack other users. Your comment was worse than the one you replied to.
  - hydralist 12y ago
    my boy! #hero
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
    - dang 12y ago
      Not at all! I was speaking only generally. It would surely be excessive to first scold someone and then ban them. Please understand that I didn't mean to pick on you personally. Our goal is to send feedback signals into the community generally, and it's only about content, never individuals. The comment you replied to was of course very bad, and we appreciate your looking out for the integrity of HN. The better way to do that would be to simply downvote the bad comment, or, in extreme cases, flag it. And you can always email us at hn@ycombinator.com.
      - arthurcolle 12y ago
        I completely understand the logic and appreciate the response. I'll keep my future comments content-oriented and keep that in mind. I was pretty surprised when pg instituted the pending comments but I think I'm beginning to see where the idea came from...

sizzle 12y ago

*neural pathways