4 ms·

Mistakes we've made

121 points by mgeraci 12y ago

coffeecodecouch 12y ago
We shouldn't have named our company "Hacker School." Both parts of our name have caused us trouble: Hacker because so many people take it to mean a person who breaks into computers rather than a clever programmer. Why would that matter? Everyone who's interested in Hacker School is a hacker and understands the true meaning of the word.
- nicholasjbs 12y ago
  That was initially our assumption, but we've learned that there are some people who are interested in (and ultimately great fits for) Hacker School who don't primarily interpret the word as we do. Also, while most people who come to Hacker School understand our use of hacker, many of their families and friends don't. And that's caused Hacker Schoolers a surprising amount of annoyance ("What do you mean you're quitting your job and moving to New York for Hacker School?!")
  - coffeecodecouch 12y ago
    Sorry for the late reply, I was temperately banned after my comment got downvoted twice. > Also, while most people who come to Hacker School understand our use of hacker, many of their families and friends don't. And that's caused Hacker Schoolers a surprising amount of annoyance ("What do you mean you're quitting your job and moving to New York for Hacker School?!") That's a really great point, I hadn't though of that. I'm still glad you chose that name though, if you hadn't I probably wouldn't have been interested enough to read through your website and ultimately decide to apply in the future. If you were to re-make Hacker School with the knowledge you have now, what would you name it?
    - nicholasjbs 12y ago
      I don't know. We've considered a number of names but haven't found one we really like. We're open to suggestions :)
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > Why would that matter? Everyone who's interested in Hacker School is a hacker and understands the true meaning of the word. No, not everyone who is a hacker (in the clever programmer sense) understands the word primarily in that sense. And, furthermore, not everyone who would be interested in what Hacker School offers is already a hacker (in the sense at issue), though presumably going to Hacker School would make it more likely that they would be.
oskarth 12y ago
For what it's worth I still think the name is great. The meaning of words change. The identity of Hacker School is strong, and I could easily see it deciding what hacker and school means in the future, not unlike YC and the words hacker and incubator. Granted, it's an uphill battle, but the name recognition is strong, unlike Foo Bootcamp (I might be biased in this regard, but friends have remembered the name without being prompting just because it sounds cool).
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
jey 12y ago
presents strong evidence that this language is gendered. We've since stopped saying that people must "love" programming Could someone expand on this point and explain how the "love programming" phrasing is gendered?
- nicholasjbs 12y ago
  The linked book (Unlocking the Clubhouse[1]) is based off a multi-year study of Carnegie Mellon CS majors. They found it was common for the male CS majors to describe themselves as "in love" with programming but much less common for female CS majors to do so. (That's obviously greatly simplified, but that's the gist of it.) [1] http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/unlocking-clubhouse http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/unlocking-clubhouse
  - AndyKelley 12y ago
    That doesn't imply that "love" is a gendered word, it implies that males use the word more.
    - dragonwriter 12y ago
      It suggests (but certainly does not, as described, certainly establish) that the associating the term with a particular kind of affection for a vocation may be tied to gender, and therefore that suggesting that identifying with the use of that term in that relation as a qualification for a program like Hacker School may be an unintentional gender filter. Interestingly, I'd never thought about that previously but as soon as I saw a reference to it I realized that I'd much less frequently seen women use the term in that context (with regard to vocational activities) compared to men, so, while I don't know that different word usage by gender is really the issue, I see that it certainly could be, and that it makes sense to avoid that usage in the context Hacker School was using it.
      - Torgo 12y ago
        I am not surprised at all a study found that less women say they "love" programming. In my career I have worked with many women, and none of them would I consider less than well-rounded as a person. But I have met many, many males who are heavily skewed toward the "hacking is life" mindset. Nevertheless, the two best programmers I have ever known are women, and they did not identify as "hackers." Hacking is a culture, not a job description, and in my experience, singleminded dedication to programming is not an indicator of ability. So I guess the real problem with "Hacker School" is that it's a programming school not a hacker school. A hacker (programming) school could never say anything like "you don't have to love programming" because being a hacker is pretty much defined by loving it.
rando289 12y ago
I'm very impressed by this post. Concise. Insightful. Practical. Honest.
jonalmeida 12y ago
‎I'm glad I got to read this post since I recently didn't get into HS for this summer. I don't think I'm worried that they may have made a mistake with my application because I'm worth the time, or other self affirming points (blah blah blah). Although, it would have been nice if they mentioned what exactly made them feel like I wasn't a good fit so I could work on that. I get that it's not always possible since they probably get a huge number of applications to go through. It seems like they do a lot of introspection which I like to see - gives you a sense of what kind of people they are and makes me want to go there even more. EDIT: Grammar
- nicholasjbs 12y ago
  Thanks for the kind words, and I'm sorry things didn't work out this time around :\ Regarding feedback: We tried to give individualized feedback up until last year, but we stopped doing it because it took a ton of time and wasn't particularly effective. We wrote about this here: https://www.hackerschool.com/feedback https://www.hackerschool.com/feedback
  - jonalmeida 12y ago
    Thanks for link. It would be great to add that to future emails so people understand the use of a generic email. Impressed as always!
sadfnjksdf 12y ago
I disagree with one "but" in this post. Rebranding is not optional/too expensive. It's THAT important. Don't not do it, and never give up on a necessary TODO. Good luck! You guys are doing great.
- peterwwillis 12y ago
  It's funny because they actually know a bit about rebranding. Hacker School evolved out of Hackruiter, which in turn came from HireHive. http://unschooled.org/2012/06/the-path-to-hacker-school/ http://unschooled.org/2012/06/the-path-to-hacker-school/ All told they've been around since 2011. If they think three years is too late to change brands, well, it just sounds pretty shortsighted to me. They can take their existing customers with them and build much needed credibility in being true to their vision. As long as the new brand is better than the old brand I don't see a downside.
sown 12y ago
I personally think something like 'Code Atleier' has a nicer ring to it. :)
AlliedEnvy 12y ago
We're also updating our internal review system to obfuscate applicants' names to avoid any subconscious bias during our application review process. We'll soon be considering applicants named "Blue Dart" and "Purple Rover" rather than "Jane Doe" and "José Smith". Careful. I am reminded of a classic hacker koan (perhaps, appropriately for a hacker school): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_koan#Uncarved_block http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_koan#Uncarved_block The situation would likely be better than before, but this may be trading one set of subconscious biases for yet another.

121 points by mgeraci 12y ago

We shouldn't have named our company "Hacker School." Both parts of our name have caused us trouble: Hacker because so many people take it to mean a person who breaks into computers rather than a clever programmer. Why would that matter? Everyone who's interested in Hacker School is a hacker and understands the true meaning of the word.

nicholasjbs 12y ago
That was initially our assumption, but we've learned that there are some people who are interested in (and ultimately great fits for) Hacker School who don't primarily interpret the word as we do. Also, while most people who come to Hacker School understand our use of hacker, many of their families and friends don't. And that's caused Hacker Schoolers a surprising amount of annoyance ("What do you mean you're quitting your job and moving to New York for Hacker School?!")
- coffeecodecouch 12y ago
  Sorry for the late reply, I was temperately banned after my comment got downvoted twice. > Also, while most people who come to Hacker School understand our use of hacker, many of their families and friends don't. And that's caused Hacker Schoolers a surprising amount of annoyance ("What do you mean you're quitting your job and moving to New York for Hacker School?!") That's a really great point, I hadn't though of that. I'm still glad you chose that name though, if you hadn't I probably wouldn't have been interested enough to read through your website and ultimately decide to apply in the future. If you were to re-make Hacker School with the knowledge you have now, what would you name it?
  - nicholasjbs 12y ago
    I don't know. We've considered a number of names but haven't found one we really like. We're open to suggestions :)
dragonwriter 12y ago
> Why would that matter? Everyone who's interested in Hacker School is a hacker and understands the true meaning of the word. No, not everyone who is a hacker (in the clever programmer sense) understands the word primarily in that sense. And, furthermore, not everyone who would be interested in what Hacker School offers is already a hacker (in the sense at issue), though presumably going to Hacker School would make it more likely that they would be.

oskarth 12y ago

For what it's worth I still think the name is great. The meaning of words change. The identity of Hacker School is strong, and I could easily see it deciding what hacker and school means in the future, not unlike YC and the words hacker and incubator. Granted, it's an uphill battle, but the name recognition is strong, unlike Foo Bootcamp (I might be biased in this regard, but friends have remembered the name without being prompting just because it sounds cool).

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

jey 12y ago

presents strong evidence that this language is gendered. We've since stopped saying that people must "love" programming Could someone expand on this point and explain how the "love programming" phrasing is gendered?

nicholasjbs 12y ago
The linked book (Unlocking the Clubhouse[1]) is based off a multi-year study of Carnegie Mellon CS majors. They found it was common for the male CS majors to describe themselves as "in love" with programming but much less common for female CS majors to do so. (That's obviously greatly simplified, but that's the gist of it.) [1] http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/unlocking-clubhouse http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/unlocking-clubhouse
- AndyKelley 12y ago
  That doesn't imply that "love" is a gendered word, it implies that males use the word more.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    It suggests (but certainly does not, as described, certainly establish) that the associating the term with a particular kind of affection for a vocation may be tied to gender, and therefore that suggesting that identifying with the use of that term in that relation as a qualification for a program like Hacker School may be an unintentional gender filter. Interestingly, I'd never thought about that previously but as soon as I saw a reference to it I realized that I'd much less frequently seen women use the term in that context (with regard to vocational activities) compared to men, so, while I don't know that different word usage by gender is really the issue, I see that it certainly could be, and that it makes sense to avoid that usage in the context Hacker School was using it.
    - Torgo 12y ago
      I am not surprised at all a study found that less women say they "love" programming. In my career I have worked with many women, and none of them would I consider less than well-rounded as a person. But I have met many, many males who are heavily skewed toward the "hacking is life" mindset. Nevertheless, the two best programmers I have ever known are women, and they did not identify as "hackers." Hacking is a culture, not a job description, and in my experience, singleminded dedication to programming is not an indicator of ability. So I guess the real problem with "Hacker School" is that it's a programming school not a hacker school. A hacker (programming) school could never say anything like "you don't have to love programming" because being a hacker is pretty much defined by loving it.

rando289 12y ago

I'm very impressed by this post. Concise. Insightful. Practical. Honest.

jonalmeida 12y ago

‎I'm glad I got to read this post since I recently didn't get into HS for this summer. I don't think I'm worried that they may have made a mistake with my application because I'm worth the time, or other self affirming points (blah blah blah). Although, it would have been nice if they mentioned what exactly made them feel like I wasn't a good fit so I could work on that. I get that it's not always possible since they probably get a huge number of applications to go through. It seems like they do a lot of introspection which I like to see - gives you a sense of what kind of people they are and makes me want to go there even more. EDIT: Grammar

nicholasjbs 12y ago
Thanks for the kind words, and I'm sorry things didn't work out this time around :\ Regarding feedback: We tried to give individualized feedback up until last year, but we stopped doing it because it took a ton of time and wasn't particularly effective. We wrote about this here: https://www.hackerschool.com/feedback https://www.hackerschool.com/feedback
- jonalmeida 12y ago
  Thanks for link. It would be great to add that to future emails so people understand the use of a generic email. Impressed as always!

sadfnjksdf 12y ago

I disagree with one "but" in this post. Rebranding is not optional/too expensive. It's THAT important. Don't not do it, and never give up on a necessary TODO. Good luck! You guys are doing great.

peterwwillis 12y ago
It's funny because they actually know a bit about rebranding. Hacker School evolved out of Hackruiter, which in turn came from HireHive. http://unschooled.org/2012/06/the-path-to-hacker-school/ http://unschooled.org/2012/06/the-path-to-hacker-school/ All told they've been around since 2011. If they think three years is too late to change brands, well, it just sounds pretty shortsighted to me. They can take their existing customers with them and build much needed credibility in being true to their vision. As long as the new brand is better than the old brand I don't see a downside.

sown 12y ago

I personally think something like 'Code Atleier' has a nicer ring to it. :)

AlliedEnvy 12y ago

We're also updating our internal review system to obfuscate applicants' names to avoid any subconscious bias during our application review process. We'll soon be considering applicants named "Blue Dart" and "Purple Rover" rather than "Jane Doe" and "José Smith". Careful. I am reminded of a classic hacker koan (perhaps, appropriately for a hacker school): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_koan#Uncarved_block http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_koan#Uncarved_block The situation would likely be better than before, but this may be trading one set of subconscious biases for yet another.