7 ms·

"It might seem crazy to entertain, but having seen first-hand that these folks can consistently climb and succeed while being what most decent people would cons

"It might seem crazy to entertain, but having seen first-hand that these folks can consistently climb and succeed while being what most decent people would consider scumbags..." One of my best friends is a psychiatrist at a large academic hospital. He works with "corporate leaders" and top athletes (college level and above). He says in his 5 years of practice, he has not yet seen a "successful" person who does not exhibit a significant degree of sociopathic behavior. He goes as far as saying that being sociopathic is an asset if you are trying to be successful in any hyper competitive human endeavor (politics, business, sports etc).

jckt 13y ago
I think Bill Gates is a good counterexample. Microsoft was not the nicest company around, but as a boss he seems pretty normal, even good. And I'd say he's just as successful as Jobs, if not more. (Also difficult to imagine a sociopath being a philanthropist like Gates).
- abbasmehdi 13y ago
  Bill Gates' first act could qualify as intense to say the least [1] [2], and second act is indeed saintly. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates#Management_style http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates#Management_style [2] No judgement on him because not everyone can pull off a Microsoft.
- shortsightedsid 13y ago
  Bill Gates' reviews were notoriously difficult - http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/06/16.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/06/16.html. I wouldn't call him a "normal" boss either.
  - serge2k 13y ago
    A difficult review is not a bad thing, especially when it is a software review.
    - chris_wot 12y ago
      Do you really need to bean arsehole whilst doing said difficult review?
  - jckt 13y ago
    I guess I meant normal as in not-a-sociopath. As another commenter said, Gates was definitely intense. But then a lot of other people can be similarly described (maybe not to the same degree, but someone like Linus is not exactly known for being mild mannered[1], but he's definitely not a sociopath). But thanks for the link though, I'll check it out. I must've suppressed all my Gates-criticism for all the good he's doing now. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5107495 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5107495
    - snom380 13y ago
      Well, for one he also tried to push his co-founder out of the company while he was sick in hospital. If he wasn't a sociopath at the time, he sure acted like one.
- benched 13y ago
  Gates had a change of heart, and a matching change of public image.
  - crag 13y ago
    Gates got older. And realized his mortality. And he was smart enough to act on it.
    - shiven 13y ago
      And perhaps the fact that when you die, people will remember not just the billions you made but the asshole you were as well. Once you are gone, your material success won't be worth squat to you anymore. But your legacy will forever echo the dick you were to others (who now write your history for posterity).
      - crag 13y ago
        Look, Steve Jobs, despite his accomplishments (and I don't mean to belittle them at all) is a gnat in history. Like the rest of us. He had marketing brilliance, and was a trend-setting and trend-guesser. But he didn't truly change the world. He didn't better our lives. He (Apple) produce(s) high quality, high price hardware. Simple as that. But in America, right now, we measure wealth to be greatness. It's sad really. Wealth means nothing unless you spread it around. Which Job's never did. As a rule. Steve Jobs was not a generous man. Not at all. And he also wasn't a kind man. Maybe to his family and close friends - the personal Steve Jobs - I don't know. But everyone else was a tool to be used. Even Woz. Hell, especially Woz. Despite us turning him into a Saint, in 100 years he'll be forgotten. Bill Gates might not be though.
lepht 13y ago
Relevant reading for those that are interested: Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go to Work - http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0061147893?pc_redir=1395239748&robot_redir=1 http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0061147893?pc_redir=1395239748...
vacri 13y ago
Pehaps it's more that the ones that make themselves visible are like that? I've known a couple of people in that social group that were quite ethical and concerned people. They didn't spend a lot of their time drawing attention to themselves, though. Not to say the the 'quiet' ones are all like that, just that perhaps there's something in pandering to the media that correlates with the 'public, sociopath' ones. I don't really move in those circles though, so it's not like the people I do know are necessarily representative.
megablast 13y ago
> he has not yet seen a "successful" person who does not exhibit a significant degree of sociopathic behavior. This is such a weak argument, you can subscribe some sociopathic behavious to any regular person if you want.
- abbasmehdi 13y ago
  A psychiatrist cannot differentiate between "any regular person" and "significant degree of sociopathic behavior"?
  - SamuelMulder 13y ago
    Maybe not as simple as you think: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYemnKEKx0c http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYemnKEKx0c
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
  - forgottenpass 13y ago
    A psychiatrist cannot differentiate between "any regular person" and "significant degree of sociopathic behavior"? No they can't. Psychiatric opinions are too mailable. It's not an easy assessment like diagnosing someone else's professional qualifications in a field unrelated to yours using a 2nd hand anecdote posted on the Internet. Now there's an analysis you can take to the bank.
    - abbasmehdi 12y ago
      Any evidence to back up the claim "No they can't."? Their opinions seem to carry weight in courts. I'm not saying that is evidence, but that could be an indicator that psychiatrists might know what they're talking about (and its not just voodoo science).
      - forgottenpass 12y ago
moron4hire 13y ago
There may be an aspect of confirmation bias at hand. I would suspect that sociopaths--being narcissists--need validation and seek to advertise their success much more than successful non-sociopaths.

jckt 13y ago

I think Bill Gates is a good counterexample. Microsoft was not the nicest company around, but as a boss he seems pretty normal, even good. And I'd say he's just as successful as Jobs, if not more. (Also difficult to imagine a sociopath being a philanthropist like Gates).

abbasmehdi 13y ago
Bill Gates' first act could qualify as intense to say the least [1] [2], and second act is indeed saintly. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates#Management_style http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates#Management_style [2] No judgement on him because not everyone can pull off a Microsoft.
shortsightedsid 13y ago
Bill Gates' reviews were notoriously difficult - http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/06/16.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/06/16.html. I wouldn't call him a "normal" boss either.
- serge2k 13y ago
  A difficult review is not a bad thing, especially when it is a software review.
  - chris_wot 12y ago
    Do you really need to bean arsehole whilst doing said difficult review?
- jckt 13y ago
  I guess I meant normal as in not-a-sociopath. As another commenter said, Gates was definitely intense. But then a lot of other people can be similarly described (maybe not to the same degree, but someone like Linus is not exactly known for being mild mannered[1], but he's definitely not a sociopath). But thanks for the link though, I'll check it out. I must've suppressed all my Gates-criticism for all the good he's doing now. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5107495 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5107495
  - snom380 13y ago
    Well, for one he also tried to push his co-founder out of the company while he was sick in hospital. If he wasn't a sociopath at the time, he sure acted like one.
benched 13y ago
Gates had a change of heart, and a matching change of public image.
- crag 13y ago
  Gates got older. And realized his mortality. And he was smart enough to act on it.
  - shiven 13y ago
    And perhaps the fact that when you die, people will remember not just the billions you made but the asshole you were as well. Once you are gone, your material success won't be worth squat to you anymore. But your legacy will forever echo the dick you were to others (who now write your history for posterity).
    - crag 13y ago
      Look, Steve Jobs, despite his accomplishments (and I don't mean to belittle them at all) is a gnat in history. Like the rest of us. He had marketing brilliance, and was a trend-setting and trend-guesser. But he didn't truly change the world. He didn't better our lives. He (Apple) produce(s) high quality, high price hardware. Simple as that. But in America, right now, we measure wealth to be greatness. It's sad really. Wealth means nothing unless you spread it around. Which Job's never did. As a rule. Steve Jobs was not a generous man. Not at all. And he also wasn't a kind man. Maybe to his family and close friends - the personal Steve Jobs - I don't know. But everyone else was a tool to be used. Even Woz. Hell, especially Woz. Despite us turning him into a Saint, in 100 years he'll be forgotten. Bill Gates might not be though.

lepht 13y ago

Relevant reading for those that are interested: Snakes in Suits: When Psychopaths Go to Work - http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0061147893?pc_redir=1395239748&robot_redir=1 http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0061147893?pc_redir=1395239748...

vacri 13y ago

Pehaps it's more that the ones that make themselves visible are like that? I've known a couple of people in that social group that were quite ethical and concerned people. They didn't spend a lot of their time drawing attention to themselves, though. Not to say the the 'quiet' ones are all like that, just that perhaps there's something in pandering to the media that correlates with the 'public, sociopath' ones. I don't really move in those circles though, so it's not like the people I do know are necessarily representative.

megablast 13y ago

> he has not yet seen a "successful" person who does not exhibit a significant degree of sociopathic behavior. This is such a weak argument, you can subscribe some sociopathic behavious to any regular person if you want.

abbasmehdi 13y ago
A psychiatrist cannot differentiate between "any regular person" and "significant degree of sociopathic behavior"?
- SamuelMulder 13y ago
  Maybe not as simple as you think: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYemnKEKx0c http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYemnKEKx0c
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- forgottenpass 13y ago
  A psychiatrist cannot differentiate between "any regular person" and "significant degree of sociopathic behavior"? No they can't. Psychiatric opinions are too mailable. It's not an easy assessment like diagnosing someone else's professional qualifications in a field unrelated to yours using a 2nd hand anecdote posted on the Internet. Now there's an analysis you can take to the bank.
  - abbasmehdi 12y ago
    Any evidence to back up the claim "No they can't."? Their opinions seem to carry weight in courts. I'm not saying that is evidence, but that could be an indicator that psychiatrists might know what they're talking about (and its not just voodoo science).
    - forgottenpass 12y ago

moron4hire 13y ago

There may be an aspect of confirmation bias at hand. I would suspect that sociopaths--being narcissists--need validation and seek to advertise their success much more than successful non-sociopaths.