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We are literally on the exact same page. You're enumerating my point. Inviting somebody for beers isn't hitting on them, but I have been told by women exactly

We are literally on the exact same page. You're enumerating my point. Inviting somebody for beers isn't hitting on them, but I have been told by women exactly why this is not okay. (In conversations like this one. This sort of "hey that's not okay" doesn't ever seem to actually come up in real life) I agree that it's totally normal to compliment people on what they're wearing, and I, like you, do this to my coworkers all the time. Except, again, there are lots of vocal people screaming how this is not okay. That's my point. "Normal" human interactions are being cast as not okay by some vocal tech writers, which is what can create a mental minefield.

lambda 13y ago
> Inviting somebody for beers isn't hitting on them That's not true. It can be hitting on them, or it can not be. If you think you might be in a grey area, maybe err on the side of making it feel safer by making it a group outing rather than putting them on the spot. Don't use that doubt about the grey area as an excuse for avoiding talking to women at all, however. > Except, again, there are lots of vocal people screaming how this is not okay. I have never heard someone scream such a thing. Jesus, if I complimented someone and they screamed at me, I'd think they were crazy. Do people really scream about that at you? Remember, don't confuse vocal debate on Twitter or HN with screaming. It's really not the same. People are frequently more blunt online than they are in real life. This happens in all directions. But don't act like it's the end of the world when a few people are overly vocal on the internet. Also, don't respond to legitimate, reasonable complaints, like "I'm the technical person coming to this conference and people ignore me and talk to my fiance instead" with "well yeah, but this other thing over here blew up way out of proportion on the internet, so I can't treat you like a normal person in real life." Yes, there is occasional overreaction that has real life consequences, like the unfortunate PyCon "dongle" incident. That's really the exception rather than the rule, however, and the real-life consequences happened in both directions. Note that many, many prominent feminist writers came out against both Adria Richard's actions and those of the the company that fired the guy making the joke.
- teacup50 13y ago
  > That's not true. It can be hitting on them, or it can not be. Isn't that the point of many beer invites? It's a chance to socialize, and if you don't have an established relationship, it's a chance to establish one. > If you think you might be in a grey area, maybe err on the side of making it feel safer by making it a group outing rather than putting them on the spot. Safer? I'm sorry, are we talking about children or adults? If someone can't manage a potentially ambiguous beer invite -- for instance, by inviting other people along themselves -- they ought to keep it to themselves and just say "no thanks" > That's really the exception rather than the rule, however, and the real-life consequences happened in both directions. Yes, it is the exception, but angry rhetorical baseball bats like "mansplaining" and "privilege" are being plastered all over the tech community these days, and it stops seeming like the exception. I already feel uncomfortable attending an event that has adopted Ada Initiative-derived code of conduct, or otherwise aligned themselves with that vocal sector of the technology community. It's clear that focus is being redirected to politics, and when people start using hostile language to describe my gender and race in broad strokes, I'm clearly in the cross-hairs for a small, vocal, and highly volatile minority; there are safer and more comfortable places for me to be.
  - lambda 13y ago
    (warning: strong, potentially triggering language contained in this post) > I'm sorry, are we talking about children or adults? If someone can't manage a potentially ambiguous beer invite -- for instance, by inviting other people along -- they ought to keep it to themselves and just say "no thanks" I was responding to someone who was acting as if he had to be on his toes any time he invited a woman for a beer, as if he'd be immediately be branded a sexist for ever thinking about inviting her for beer. Yes, I'm making this sound childish, because his complaint was childish. I was giving him some advice, in case he actually believed that there was a risk of being branded a sexist for inviting someone to a beer, for how to resolve such situations that he seems to be so afraid of safely, without any potential hint of ambiguity. I was only half serious. It is fine advice if you really are so socially inept as to not know where that line is; however, I suspect that his argument was more of a strawman, built up so he could complain about some perceived wrong online, rather than an actual legitimate explanation for why he thinks that men frequently ignore women at technical conferences. > Yes, it is the exception, but angry rhetorical baseball bats like "mansplaining" and "privilege" are being plastered all over the tech community these days, and it stops seeming like the exception. Hm? The fact that people are bigger assholes online than they are in real life is news to you? I was pointing out that real life consequences are relatively rare, while online rhetoric can be much more heated, so your response about heated online rhetoric doesn't really contradict what I was saying. And think about this for a minute. People who are criticizing sexism online and go over the line use such horrible "rhetorical baseball bats" as "mansplaining" and "privilege", while those who criticize perceived over-sensitivity to sexism use things like murder and rape threats: http://www.dailydot.com/news/adria-richards-fired-sendgrid-violent-backlash/ http://www.dailydot.com/news/adria-richards-fired-sendgrid-v... If you are going to complain about "rhetorical basebal bats", I think that death threats are a bit more severe than being accused of "mansplaining." > I already feel uncomfortable attending an event that has adopted Ada Initiative-derived code of conduct Really? This code of conduct makes you feel uncomfortable? https://us.pycon.org/2012/codeofconduct/ https://us.pycon.org/2012/codeofconduct/ What part of that makes you feel uncomfortable? I think it's pretty unobjectionable. > when people start using hostile language to describe my gender and race in broad strokes, I'm clearly in the cross-hairs for a small, vocal, and highly volatile minority No, you really aren't in any cross hairs. Come on. Unless you are actively harassing people, or making inappropriate jokes in professional venues, there is no one who is against you or out to get you. None of the people proposing these codes of conduct are against white men at all (I'm assuming that's the "gender and race" you are referring to, please correct me if I'm wrong); if they were, why would they be going to programming conferences in the first place, which are full of white men? What they are looking for is recognition that there are other people at the conference, who may not feel the same sense of safety as you do. One problem is that without a code of conduct, it can be hard to know where to draw the line, or hard to adequately enforce that line as there is no written guideline for how to deal with such situations. With the code of conduct, it becomes more clear; blatantly sexual language is over the line, and it can be dealt with by expulsion from the conference. It's simple, and it lets you not worry about it; as a conference organizer, you don't have to worry about how prominent in the community someone is when they make a porn-based presentation, you can just firmly say "no."

lambda 13y ago

> Inviting somebody for beers isn't hitting on them That's not true. It can be hitting on them, or it can not be. If you think you might be in a grey area, maybe err on the side of making it feel safer by making it a group outing rather than putting them on the spot. Don't use that doubt about the grey area as an excuse for avoiding talking to women at all, however. > Except, again, there are lots of vocal people screaming how this is not okay. I have never heard someone scream such a thing. Jesus, if I complimented someone and they screamed at me, I'd think they were crazy. Do people really scream about that at you? Remember, don't confuse vocal debate on Twitter or HN with screaming. It's really not the same. People are frequently more blunt online than they are in real life. This happens in all directions. But don't act like it's the end of the world when a few people are overly vocal on the internet. Also, don't respond to legitimate, reasonable complaints, like "I'm the technical person coming to this conference and people ignore me and talk to my fiance instead" with "well yeah, but this other thing over here blew up way out of proportion on the internet, so I can't treat you like a normal person in real life." Yes, there is occasional overreaction that has real life consequences, like the unfortunate PyCon "dongle" incident. That's really the exception rather than the rule, however, and the real-life consequences happened in both directions. Note that many, many prominent feminist writers came out against both Adria Richard's actions and those of the the company that fired the guy making the joke.

teacup50 13y ago
> That's not true. It can be hitting on them, or it can not be. Isn't that the point of many beer invites? It's a chance to socialize, and if you don't have an established relationship, it's a chance to establish one. > If you think you might be in a grey area, maybe err on the side of making it feel safer by making it a group outing rather than putting them on the spot. Safer? I'm sorry, are we talking about children or adults? If someone can't manage a potentially ambiguous beer invite -- for instance, by inviting other people along themselves -- they ought to keep it to themselves and just say "no thanks" > That's really the exception rather than the rule, however, and the real-life consequences happened in both directions. Yes, it is the exception, but angry rhetorical baseball bats like "mansplaining" and "privilege" are being plastered all over the tech community these days, and it stops seeming like the exception. I already feel uncomfortable attending an event that has adopted Ada Initiative-derived code of conduct, or otherwise aligned themselves with that vocal sector of the technology community. It's clear that focus is being redirected to politics, and when people start using hostile language to describe my gender and race in broad strokes, I'm clearly in the cross-hairs for a small, vocal, and highly volatile minority; there are safer and more comfortable places for me to be.
- lambda 13y ago
  (warning: strong, potentially triggering language contained in this post) > I'm sorry, are we talking about children or adults? If someone can't manage a potentially ambiguous beer invite -- for instance, by inviting other people along -- they ought to keep it to themselves and just say "no thanks" I was responding to someone who was acting as if he had to be on his toes any time he invited a woman for a beer, as if he'd be immediately be branded a sexist for ever thinking about inviting her for beer. Yes, I'm making this sound childish, because his complaint was childish. I was giving him some advice, in case he actually believed that there was a risk of being branded a sexist for inviting someone to a beer, for how to resolve such situations that he seems to be so afraid of safely, without any potential hint of ambiguity. I was only half serious. It is fine advice if you really are so socially inept as to not know where that line is; however, I suspect that his argument was more of a strawman, built up so he could complain about some perceived wrong online, rather than an actual legitimate explanation for why he thinks that men frequently ignore women at technical conferences. > Yes, it is the exception, but angry rhetorical baseball bats like "mansplaining" and "privilege" are being plastered all over the tech community these days, and it stops seeming like the exception. Hm? The fact that people are bigger assholes online than they are in real life is news to you? I was pointing out that real life consequences are relatively rare, while online rhetoric can be much more heated, so your response about heated online rhetoric doesn't really contradict what I was saying. And think about this for a minute. People who are criticizing sexism online and go over the line use such horrible "rhetorical baseball bats" as "mansplaining" and "privilege", while those who criticize perceived over-sensitivity to sexism use things like murder and rape threats: http://www.dailydot.com/news/adria-richards-fired-sendgrid-violent-backlash/ http://www.dailydot.com/news/adria-richards-fired-sendgrid-v... If you are going to complain about "rhetorical basebal bats", I think that death threats are a bit more severe than being accused of "mansplaining." > I already feel uncomfortable attending an event that has adopted Ada Initiative-derived code of conduct Really? This code of conduct makes you feel uncomfortable? https://us.pycon.org/2012/codeofconduct/ https://us.pycon.org/2012/codeofconduct/ What part of that makes you feel uncomfortable? I think it's pretty unobjectionable. > when people start using hostile language to describe my gender and race in broad strokes, I'm clearly in the cross-hairs for a small, vocal, and highly volatile minority No, you really aren't in any cross hairs. Come on. Unless you are actively harassing people, or making inappropriate jokes in professional venues, there is no one who is against you or out to get you. None of the people proposing these codes of conduct are against white men at all (I'm assuming that's the "gender and race" you are referring to, please correct me if I'm wrong); if they were, why would they be going to programming conferences in the first place, which are full of white men? What they are looking for is recognition that there are other people at the conference, who may not feel the same sense of safety as you do. One problem is that without a code of conduct, it can be hard to know where to draw the line, or hard to adequately enforce that line as there is no written guideline for how to deal with such situations. With the code of conduct, it becomes more clear; blatantly sexual language is over the line, and it can be dealt with by expulsion from the conference. It's simple, and it lets you not worry about it; as a conference organizer, you don't have to worry about how prominent in the community someone is when they make a porn-based presentation, you can just firmly say "no."