7 ms·

This is so apropos! Three groups of my friends (6 people, total) are attempting to start breweries, brewpubs, or cideries. I have a number of thoughts for the

by edj 13y ago

This is so apropos! Three groups of my friends (6 people, total) are attempting to start breweries, brewpubs, or cideries. I have a number of thoughts for these friends. (Advice not totally unsolicited -- I've been homebrewing for about 17 years.) - Brewing a good batch of beer - better than most of the what's sold in stores - is easy. Almost anyone can do it with their first batch. - This tricks people into thinking that brewing is easy. But... - Consistency is hard. That recipe that turned out so well the first time? It might be good the second time, or it might spoil, or it might be too hoppy, or it might be cloudy, or taste of yeast, and so on. At any rate, it's unlikely that it will taste exactly the same as it did the first time. - Brewing large batches is hard. Even transitioning from 5 gallon to 10 gallon batches requires different equipment. Recipes don't scale in a simple way. And when you get into backwatering high gravity beers everything becomes even more complex. - Making wine and cider is hard compared to brewing beer. The former two have fewer ingredients, which, being fruit instead of grain, tend to be less consistent. Conditioning takes MUCH longer which means feedback and learning take much longer. - And yet, I bet actually making a consistent, high-quality beverage is the easy part compared to running a profitable brewing business. - Brewing is expensive. Startup costs are high. Even an enthusiastic homebrewer can easily spend thousands. Think $10,000 for a bare-minimum commercial brewing setup built around e.g. a SABCO Brew Magic. - The legal stuff is hard. Licenses, bonds, a legal location -- all that stuff takes time and money. - The food industry is brutal. Combining a brewery and a restaurant seems like it must tremendously increase the probability of failure. Anyway, brewing is a fun hobby. But one of those that sort of lulls people into making hasty business decisions.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
owl_icecream 13y ago
So true. Add to this that brewing to the tastes of your target market will be much less interesting than trying out that new farmhouse yeast you located at 28*C in the garage. Who wants to brew pilsner and pale 7 days a week?
ska 13y ago
FYI: "unsolicited" probably isn't the word you meant to use there (perhaps "unsupported"). This is literally unsolicited advice.
- kgermino 13y ago
  >This is literally unsolicited advice. I read it as his friends viewing him as someone with brewing experience and asking questions. Which would literally be 'soliciting' his advice...
  - ska 13y ago
    Ah, yes, it is plausible that I was being too literal minded and it was merely grammatically awkward with a different intent. I usually wouldn't comment but I think many here are not native English speakers (so might appreciate it), but more telling the setup appealed to my sleep deprived brain. Always perilous, amusing yourself.
huherto 13y ago
> Brewing large batches is hard. Even transitioning from 5 gallon to 10 gallon batches requires different equipment. Recipes don't scale in a simple way. And when you get into backwatering high gravity beers everything becomes even more complex. As an ignorant software engineer. I have to ask this. ¿Can you keep the batch size constant and increase the number of batches?
- pielud 13y ago
  You could probably do something like that, but it'd be a huge waste of time. The time to brew a batch is pretty much the same no matter the volume. I.E. Brewing a 5 gallon batch takes about the same amount of time as brewing 20 gallons, assuming you have the equipment capable of doing that volume.
  - latj 13y ago
    I think huherto is suggesting beer concurrency. That is, instead of having a 20 gallon setup, having four 5 gallon setups. It will take longer because you will have to do whatever mixing,testing, etc four times but if the longest part of the process is waiting- you win in that aspect. The question is- would this make it easier to be more consistent?
    - rje 13y ago
      As a homebrewer I think this would be a pretty rough way to try and scale. The actual brew time would be the same, but you've increased your cleaning and maintenance significantly, you need a solution to pipe from multiple stations into fermenting vessels, you need a significant amount of extra space dedicated to brewing that could otherwise be used for fermentation vessels, etc. I think the right answer is to get your equipment and do test batches to rework your recipes at scale. If you're successful as a brewery it's a process you'll have to do multiple times as you grow anyways, so avoiding it once seems like a silly optimization.
    - huherto 13y ago
      Thanks latj, this is what I was thinking. Big batches may be a good model for a large brewery but not necessarily for a small one that is growing organically. I can imagine several advantages. You can replicate without having to extrapolate quantities, pressure, etc. You get to run more experiments, I can envision a supervised machine learning system that learns which parameters make the best beer. You don't throw out big batches, etc. Sure, it may require more labor, but you get other advantages.
bsims 13y ago
My friend has been working on a TV series for years which finally was picked up last season by Esquire Network featuring craft breweries across the country. Awesome to watch it go from custom videos for the Craft Brewer's Association, to pilot, to first and second seasons. Super proud of them. Brew Dogs. http://tv.esquire.com/shows/brew-dogs http://tv.esquire.com/shows/brew-dogs
- masklinn 13y ago
  At first I thought "well that's an unforfunate name collision with the Brewdog brewery". But it turns out the show's headlined by brewdog's founders. Nice. They make fun beer (though I'm still sad they retired the tac' and the bismarck, those two were interesting experiences).
- aroch 13y ago
  I watched this solely because of the brewing on a train episode.
asynchronous13 13y ago
> Anyway, brewing is a fun hobby. But one of those that sort of lulls people into making hasty business decisions. Well said. I started brewing as a hobby about 20 years ago (egads!) But always knew that I would lose the joy of it if I tried to turn into a professional gig. A friend is in the process of opening a brewery right now. He drastically underestimated the legal paperwork involved to get started. He's sitting on a great space with all the new equipment installed and still waiting in the local government to finish their end of the process....
BrownBuffalo 13y ago
And this is unlike moving a small business to large how? This is like saying; I shouldn't start my own company or try to grow it because the complexities are too great to overcome. If you know the right people, this is why you bring in a master brewer from Sam Adams who wants to have his own stake. It's all about business, and not about brewing at some point in the game - and you need to put your SKIN in the game if you want to grow. Sad that people put the idea of opening a brewery down because of how "hard" it is. Pull up your big-girl pants and bring in a skilled person or two and go to the next level. Takes initiative. :) I say this with love, mind you.

by edj 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

owl_icecream 13y ago

So true. Add to this that brewing to the tastes of your target market will be much less interesting than trying out that new farmhouse yeast you located at 28*C in the garage. Who wants to brew pilsner and pale 7 days a week?

ska 13y ago

FYI: "unsolicited" probably isn't the word you meant to use there (perhaps "unsupported"). This is literally unsolicited advice.

kgermino 13y ago
>This is literally unsolicited advice. I read it as his friends viewing him as someone with brewing experience and asking questions. Which would literally be 'soliciting' his advice...
- ska 13y ago
  Ah, yes, it is plausible that I was being too literal minded and it was merely grammatically awkward with a different intent. I usually wouldn't comment but I think many here are not native English speakers (so might appreciate it), but more telling the setup appealed to my sleep deprived brain. Always perilous, amusing yourself.

huherto 13y ago

> Brewing large batches is hard. Even transitioning from 5 gallon to 10 gallon batches requires different equipment. Recipes don't scale in a simple way. And when you get into backwatering high gravity beers everything becomes even more complex. As an ignorant software engineer. I have to ask this. ¿Can you keep the batch size constant and increase the number of batches?

pielud 13y ago
You could probably do something like that, but it'd be a huge waste of time. The time to brew a batch is pretty much the same no matter the volume. I.E. Brewing a 5 gallon batch takes about the same amount of time as brewing 20 gallons, assuming you have the equipment capable of doing that volume.
- latj 13y ago
  I think huherto is suggesting beer concurrency. That is, instead of having a 20 gallon setup, having four 5 gallon setups. It will take longer because you will have to do whatever mixing,testing, etc four times but if the longest part of the process is waiting- you win in that aspect. The question is- would this make it easier to be more consistent?
  - rje 13y ago
    As a homebrewer I think this would be a pretty rough way to try and scale. The actual brew time would be the same, but you've increased your cleaning and maintenance significantly, you need a solution to pipe from multiple stations into fermenting vessels, you need a significant amount of extra space dedicated to brewing that could otherwise be used for fermentation vessels, etc. I think the right answer is to get your equipment and do test batches to rework your recipes at scale. If you're successful as a brewery it's a process you'll have to do multiple times as you grow anyways, so avoiding it once seems like a silly optimization.
  - huherto 13y ago
    Thanks latj, this is what I was thinking. Big batches may be a good model for a large brewery but not necessarily for a small one that is growing organically. I can imagine several advantages. You can replicate without having to extrapolate quantities, pressure, etc. You get to run more experiments, I can envision a supervised machine learning system that learns which parameters make the best beer. You don't throw out big batches, etc. Sure, it may require more labor, but you get other advantages.

bsims 13y ago

My friend has been working on a TV series for years which finally was picked up last season by Esquire Network featuring craft breweries across the country. Awesome to watch it go from custom videos for the Craft Brewer's Association, to pilot, to first and second seasons. Super proud of them. Brew Dogs. http://tv.esquire.com/shows/brew-dogs http://tv.esquire.com/shows/brew-dogs

masklinn 13y ago
At first I thought "well that's an unforfunate name collision with the Brewdog brewery". But it turns out the show's headlined by brewdog's founders. Nice. They make fun beer (though I'm still sad they retired the tac' and the bismarck, those two were interesting experiences).
aroch 13y ago
I watched this solely because of the brewing on a train episode.

asynchronous13 13y ago

> Anyway, brewing is a fun hobby. But one of those that sort of lulls people into making hasty business decisions. Well said. I started brewing as a hobby about 20 years ago (egads!) But always knew that I would lose the joy of it if I tried to turn into a professional gig. A friend is in the process of opening a brewery right now. He drastically underestimated the legal paperwork involved to get started. He's sitting on a great space with all the new equipment installed and still waiting in the local government to finish their end of the process....

BrownBuffalo 13y ago

And this is unlike moving a small business to large how? This is like saying; I shouldn't start my own company or try to grow it because the complexities are too great to overcome. If you know the right people, this is why you bring in a master brewer from Sam Adams who wants to have his own stake. It's all about business, and not about brewing at some point in the game - and you need to put your SKIN in the game if you want to grow. Sad that people put the idea of opening a brewery down because of how "hard" it is. Pull up your big-girl pants and bring in a skilled person or two and go to the next level. Takes initiative. :) I say this with love, mind you.