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"The sworn officer would focus on helping local schools increase their safety and prevent student truancy and on working with the area's large businesses to imp

by jcc80 13y ago

"The sworn officer would focus on helping local schools increase their safety and prevent student truancy and on working with the area's large businesses to improve their security" This really means harassing and arresting problem students and undesirables who are loitering near businesses. I say that because if you want to address the underlying issues and really "solve" the problem, you wouldn't do it with police. It sounds like they want their own private security but one that has police powers. What comes to mind is cities that try and fix issues related to the homeless with police because it's a complex human problem that some people & businesses try to solve with punishment/enforcement. At the least, I'll venture to say there's more effective ways to combat truancy than unleashing police on them.

lutusp 13y ago
> This really means harassing and arresting problem students and undesirables who are loitering near businesses. It's also probably unconstitutional, on the ground that it produces at least the appearance of selective enforcement. This kind of goal is usually achieved by hiring a private security guard, rather than paying a (normally) taxpayer-funded police department to focus its attention on a specific zone.
- jmccree 13y ago
  I'm not really not sure about the unconstitutional argument, but it's extremely common. Normally it's done more explicitly by hiring off duty officers. NYPD has the paid detail unit to organize private details for businesses. Where I live in Atlanta, every neighborhood you'd want to live in has their own privately paid force of off-duty officers patrolling. I'm more surprised that facebook is basically offering a grant/donation than outright hiring their own off-duty officers.
  - e12e 13y ago
    But off-duty officers are just civilians? They have no added powers to use force against citizens?
    - jmccree 13y ago
      By off duty, I mean fully in department issued uniform, badge, gun, and radio with full police authority same as on duty.
      - lutusp 13y ago
        > By off duty, I mean fully in department issued uniform, badge, gun, and radio with full police authority same as on duty. Don't you understand that an off-duty police officer may not be in uniform, that that's illegal? In some jurisdictions an off-duty police officer is expected to carry his gun, but he may not exercise police powers. In short, when a police officer goes off shift, he loses his police powers. Being a policeman is a job, not an identity.
        e12e 13y ago
        Apparently not, in many (most?) jurisdictions.
    - lutusp 13y ago
      > But off-duty officers are just civilians? They have no added powers to use force against citizens? That's correct. Police officers can only exercise police powers while on duty, and when they go off shift, they become civilians.
      - jmccree 13y ago
        I'm not sure if you're referring to a certain jurisdiction in the US, another country, or speaking "theoretically per your interpretation of the US constitution if a case made it to the supreme court", but that is not accurate for the majority of the states in the US. Most US states I'm aware of currently grant officers police authority on and off duty per state law.
        e12e 13y ago
        Hm, I see that police in Norway also seem to have the same authority off-duty as while at work (and certain obligation to intervene if they happen upon serious crime, as well as the option to intervene as if they where on duty (as long as they are able to identify themselves as police officers, and are sober)). They are prohibited against taking other jobs (moonlighting) without approval from the police commissioner, however.
  - lutusp 13y ago
    > Normally it's done more explicitly by hiring off duty officers. That's different. An off-duty police officer isn't acting in his official capacity as an agent of the police force, under oath. While off duty, he's just another trained civilian, suitable for private security duty. > I'm more surprised that facebook is basically offering a grant/donation than outright hiring their own off-duty officers. So am I -- what they're suggesting appears to be a violation of the law.
    - jmccree 13y ago
      As I mentioned to the other poster, off duty officers here (and many/most places) work in their department issued uniform with their badge/radio/gun with full police powers/immunity. Besides neighborhood patrols, another common use is parking garages or high end shopping centers hiring officers to stop traffic to let people in/out of their location on busy streets. It's not just ATL, NYPD paid detail unit supplies off duty in unform officers with dept insurance. Many police department websites even have online forms to fill out if you want to hire officer/s with standard rates. I believe there are a few states/jurisdictions that restrict off duty officers from working in uniform w/police power, but that's probably a minority. With budgets being cut everywhere, officers being able to earn an extra 50% or more of their normal salary working off duty gigs is a "free benefit" the department can offer, or like in NYC where the NYPD charges a 10% admin fee ($1.18m earned in 2011) it's extra income for the dept. For example, if Facebook was located in San Jose, they could just pay $46.50/hr for as many officers as they wanted, in unform, per http://www.sjpd.org/PDF_Forms/SEU_Secondary_Employment_Employer_Application.pdf http://www.sjpd.org/PDF_Forms/SEU_Secondary_Employment_Emplo... .
      - lutusp 13y ago
        > As I mentioned to the other poster, off duty officers here (and many/most places) work in their department issued uniform with their badge/radio/gun with full police powers/immunity [emphasis added]. Your claim is false, and you need to learn constitutional law. A police office working as a private security guard is not acting as an agent of the police, he is acting as an agent of whomever hired him, and he does not have police powers. He can make the same arrests that a citizen can make, but has no official police powers. Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_police http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_police Quote: "Private police lack the same arrest powers of government law enforcement, but do have the right to make a citizens arrest if they actually witness a crime happening." The above means that off-duty police officers are citizens, not police officers. It's considered desirable to learn a topic before posting about it, not after. Link: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_a_security_officer_have_the_police_power_to_make_an_arrest_in_new_jersey http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_a_security_officer_have_the_p... Quote: "Q: Does a security officer have the police power to make an arrest in new jersey? A: No, NJ does not give Private Security officers/guards any special police powers to execute an arrest. You only have the power to make a citizens arrest." Shall I go through all 50 states for you?
- otterley 13y ago
  I'm not familiar with any case law on the issue of the constitutionality of selective enforcement. Are you?
vellum 13y ago
This really means harassing and arresting problem students and undesirables who are loitering near businesses. It's also safer if they let the cops do the skull-cracking. This way Zuck doesn't have to give an awkward press conference about why his security guards were filmed beating up some teenagers in the parking lot.

by jcc80 13y ago

lutusp 13y ago

> This really means harassing and arresting problem students and undesirables who are loitering near businesses. It's also probably unconstitutional, on the ground that it produces at least the appearance of selective enforcement. This kind of goal is usually achieved by hiring a private security guard, rather than paying a (normally) taxpayer-funded police department to focus its attention on a specific zone.

jmccree 13y ago
I'm not really not sure about the unconstitutional argument, but it's extremely common. Normally it's done more explicitly by hiring off duty officers. NYPD has the paid detail unit to organize private details for businesses. Where I live in Atlanta, every neighborhood you'd want to live in has their own privately paid force of off-duty officers patrolling. I'm more surprised that facebook is basically offering a grant/donation than outright hiring their own off-duty officers.
- e12e 13y ago
  But off-duty officers are just civilians? They have no added powers to use force against citizens?
  - jmccree 13y ago
    By off duty, I mean fully in department issued uniform, badge, gun, and radio with full police authority same as on duty.
    - lutusp 13y ago
      > By off duty, I mean fully in department issued uniform, badge, gun, and radio with full police authority same as on duty. Don't you understand that an off-duty police officer may not be in uniform, that that's illegal? In some jurisdictions an off-duty police officer is expected to carry his gun, but he may not exercise police powers. In short, when a police officer goes off shift, he loses his police powers. Being a policeman is a job, not an identity.
      - e12e 13y ago
        Apparently not, in many (most?) jurisdictions.
  - lutusp 13y ago
    > But off-duty officers are just civilians? They have no added powers to use force against citizens? That's correct. Police officers can only exercise police powers while on duty, and when they go off shift, they become civilians.
    - jmccree 13y ago
      I'm not sure if you're referring to a certain jurisdiction in the US, another country, or speaking "theoretically per your interpretation of the US constitution if a case made it to the supreme court", but that is not accurate for the majority of the states in the US. Most US states I'm aware of currently grant officers police authority on and off duty per state law.
      - e12e 13y ago
        Hm, I see that police in Norway also seem to have the same authority off-duty as while at work (and certain obligation to intervene if they happen upon serious crime, as well as the option to intervene as if they where on duty (as long as they are able to identify themselves as police officers, and are sober)). They are prohibited against taking other jobs (moonlighting) without approval from the police commissioner, however.
- lutusp 13y ago
  > Normally it's done more explicitly by hiring off duty officers. That's different. An off-duty police officer isn't acting in his official capacity as an agent of the police force, under oath. While off duty, he's just another trained civilian, suitable for private security duty. > I'm more surprised that facebook is basically offering a grant/donation than outright hiring their own off-duty officers. So am I -- what they're suggesting appears to be a violation of the law.
  - jmccree 13y ago
    As I mentioned to the other poster, off duty officers here (and many/most places) work in their department issued uniform with their badge/radio/gun with full police powers/immunity. Besides neighborhood patrols, another common use is parking garages or high end shopping centers hiring officers to stop traffic to let people in/out of their location on busy streets. It's not just ATL, NYPD paid detail unit supplies off duty in unform officers with dept insurance. Many police department websites even have online forms to fill out if you want to hire officer/s with standard rates. I believe there are a few states/jurisdictions that restrict off duty officers from working in uniform w/police power, but that's probably a minority. With budgets being cut everywhere, officers being able to earn an extra 50% or more of their normal salary working off duty gigs is a "free benefit" the department can offer, or like in NYC where the NYPD charges a 10% admin fee ($1.18m earned in 2011) it's extra income for the dept. For example, if Facebook was located in San Jose, they could just pay $46.50/hr for as many officers as they wanted, in unform, per http://www.sjpd.org/PDF_Forms/SEU_Secondary_Employment_Employer_Application.pdf http://www.sjpd.org/PDF_Forms/SEU_Secondary_Employment_Emplo... .
    - lutusp 13y ago
      > As I mentioned to the other poster, off duty officers here (and many/most places) work in their department issued uniform with their badge/radio/gun with full police powers/immunity [emphasis added]. Your claim is false, and you need to learn constitutional law. A police office working as a private security guard is not acting as an agent of the police, he is acting as an agent of whomever hired him, and he does not have police powers. He can make the same arrests that a citizen can make, but has no official police powers. Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_police http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_police Quote: "Private police lack the same arrest powers of government law enforcement, but do have the right to make a citizens arrest if they actually witness a crime happening." The above means that off-duty police officers are citizens, not police officers. It's considered desirable to learn a topic before posting about it, not after. Link: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_a_security_officer_have_the_police_power_to_make_an_arrest_in_new_jersey http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_a_security_officer_have_the_p... Quote: "Q: Does a security officer have the police power to make an arrest in new jersey? A: No, NJ does not give Private Security officers/guards any special police powers to execute an arrest. You only have the power to make a citizens arrest." Shall I go through all 50 states for you?
otterley 13y ago
I'm not familiar with any case law on the issue of the constitutionality of selective enforcement. Are you?

vellum 13y ago

This really means harassing and arresting problem students and undesirables who are loitering near businesses. It's also safer if they let the cops do the skull-cracking. This way Zuck doesn't have to give an awkward press conference about why his security guards were filmed beating up some teenagers in the parking lot.