4 ms·

Most professors will not carry guns, but knowing that some may be armed could deter massacres like the ones at Virgina Tech or Sandy Hook.

nsxwolf 13y ago
Mass shootings are so rare we may not ever be able to gather convincing data one way or another, but I tend to agree. Shooters are dismissed as crazy and irrational, but they aren't. In every case, they plan for a successful shooting. They want to go out with a bang, not a whimper. They're going to prefer targets that are unlikely to offer resistance that will reduce or entirely eliminate their body count.
shawabawa3 13y ago
Do people seriously believe that? Do you really think that the sort of people who would shoot up a classroom will have second thoughts if they think someone else might have a gun?
- nsxwolf 13y ago
  Yes, per my comment above. They will go places where they won't face interference with their plans - they will choose a restaurant with a "No Guns" sign rather than a police station. You assume there is no rationality behind the suicidal, but there is. Consider the Kamikaze.
  - sentenza 13y ago
    I'd say that is wishful thinking. The number of college shooting perpetrators that expected to get away without being killed is most likely zero. Here in Germany there are very few guns. Nonetheless, one of the typical places to go on a rampage is the court house, where you have a 100% likelyhood of armed guards. Also: Didn't the Kamikaze try to crash into heavily armed ships?
    - nsxwolf 13y ago
      I'm not sure what you're arguing. I never said mass shooters expect to get away without being killed. I said they want to be successful - kill as many as they can before they're either killed or shoot themselves when they hear the sirens. My Kamikaze example was merely demonstrating that suicidal people can be rational. In this case, their mission was to attack the battleships, not to attack an unarmed populace.
    - hga 13y ago
      "Here in Germany there are very few guns" Not even close. Official, legally registered guns? Perhaps. But memories are long. Per the Small Arms Survey, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_c... you're in 15th place, tied with Iceland, in a cluster of countries at around 30 per 100 residents also including Uruguay, Sweden, Norway, France, Canada, and Austria. For that matter, as of late Western Europe has been suffering more and worse such incidents than the US, and that includes German school shootings in Winnenden in 2009, Emsdetten in 2006, Rötz in 2005, Coburg in 2003 and Erfurt in 2002 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Europe). 3 of these incidents were small scale, but 2 resulted in 16 and 17 dead respectively, and another miraculously ended with only the shooter killing himself, but 37 injured, 4 students shot, etc. I always find it ... amusing when Germans try to lecture Americans on this topic. Ah, have you stopped institutionizing your seriously mentally ill like the US did starting in the early-mid '60s?
      - sentenza 13y ago
        Uh huh. Do you know when I last time have seen a gun here in Germany, not carried by a police officer? Never. I have never seen a non-official handle a weapon, except on Television. In my life. Oh by the way. Memories are long, sure. I recently read of a big weapons find, in the village next go mine. They found a lot of handguns and military rifles that somebody stashed in a hidden room of an official building at the end of the war. Do you know where those weapons went? Straight to the trash. I don't even know if you can still use a weapon that has just been lying around for seventy years. And what has the mentally ill thing to do with anything? I've been to America. Your mentally ill live in the street. How is that better?
- cincinnatus 13y ago
  People who are pro ccw have a very cartoonish understanding of the world.
  - hga 13y ago
    Utterly appalling that someone who took the nom de plume of cincinnatus would say that. I'm someone who carries concealed every time I step outside my dwelling, unless I have to go to a "Gun Free Zone". Tell me exactly how my understanding of the world is "cartoonish". Use e.g. my past comments as a base. Other sources on request, but as a hint, my login name is the same one I've used since 1978 (sic), my initials.
    - cincinnatus 13y ago
      You may be level headed and well adjusted by surely you've noticed the large number of people who are CCW proponents who are not? More importantly is this; when a gun is part of the equation there is now a non-zero chance someone is going to get shot. The vast majority of the time the only gun in the vicinity is going to be that of the CCW. MOST people go through their entire lives without ever encountering a 'bad guy with a gun'. Ever. People who CCW think they are bringing a gun to a gun fight, when maybe they are bringing a gun to a fist fight, or a stern conversation.
      - hga 13y ago
        "You may be level headed and well adjusted by surely you've noticed the large number of people who are CCW proponents who are not?" Nope. Name names. "More importantly is this; when a gun is part of the equation there is now a non-zero chance someone is going to get shot." Add your comment about a fist fight, which it is well established can be deadly. You're on the side of the criminals, while I'm obviously on the side of the law abiding civilians ... not much point in continuing this "debate".
- TallGuyShort 13y ago
  It's less silly than thinking the sort of people who would shoot up a classroom will have second thoughts if there is a school policy against having weapons, and less silly than believing the police will always arrive at a mass shooting in time to save a lot of lives.
- Beliavsky 13y ago
  I think that mass shooters want to kill a lot of people before they die, so the prospect of being stopped before they can do so could be a deterrent.
- hga 13y ago
  As noted elsewhere, these events are so rare and aberrant that it is difficult to impossible to come to firm conclusions. BUT, we do know these suggestive things: Of the recent, going back quite a ways shootings (I think back to 1989, but maybe post-1966), only the Arizona Congresswoman's was not in a "Gun Free"---except for the active shooter---location. (And if the people right there hadn't stopped the shooter while he was doing a magazine change an armed citizen who showed up while they were still wrestling with him would very likely have.) The Aurora, CO movie theater shooter went significantly out of his way to go to a theater that was so hoplophobic that they required the off-duty police hired as guards to go unarmed (!). All the other local options had no such policies.
- Mz 13y ago
  Do you really think that the sort of people who would shoot up a classroom will have second thoughts if they think someone else might have a gun? Bullies are almost always cowards. So it seems plausible to me. On the other hand, I think I understand where this piece of satire is coming from. I was a military wife and full-time mom and homemaker for a long time. My dad was career military and grew up on a farm. I grew up with shotguns hanging on the wall of my parent's bedroom. I have been around gun culture but I insisted my husband get rid of the handgun he had for a time because I am clear that if you are not prepared to kill someone when you pull a gun, you best not pull it because you are likely just arming your opponent and escalating the problems. Escalating the arms race rarely leads to promoting the peace. It is unfortunate that satirical pieces of this sort so rarely follow up with commentary on how on promotes the peace after they lambast the idea of arming people to promote peace. But it seems to me that many people who recognize that more guns is not the solution do not know what would be an effective solution, so presumably they simply cannot offer anything more than criticism of the proposed solution. If you do not have an alternative solution to bring to the table, it usually isn't very helpful to shoot down (so to speak) the solution being proposed. But it happens a lot.
- GVIrish 13y ago
  There was a mall shooting in Portland where the shooter when confronted by an armed citizen, disengaged, then shot himself. http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-s... It seems that these shooters seek out soft targets where they are unlikely to encounter armed resistance. Not saying that we should put an armory in every school, just that these shooters aren't looking to get in a shoot out. If they were they'd go try to shoot up a police station.
- mbrameld 13y ago
  To play devil's advocate, do people really believe that a person who has made up their mind to go on a shooting spree at their school will change their mind when they realize it is illegal to bring a gun on campus?
  - nsxwolf 13y ago
    If a person is determined to break the law against murder, they will have no hesitation to break lesser laws as necessary.
- JoeAltmaier 13y ago
  The overwhelming number of shootings occur in gun-free zones. Its easy to believe; its true.
Tombone5 13y ago
Indeed: school massacres are driven by individuals acting in a very danger adverse manner.
- peatmoss 13y ago
  "Holy crap, it's a good guy with a gun! Run away!"

nsxwolf 13y ago

Mass shootings are so rare we may not ever be able to gather convincing data one way or another, but I tend to agree. Shooters are dismissed as crazy and irrational, but they aren't. In every case, they plan for a successful shooting. They want to go out with a bang, not a whimper. They're going to prefer targets that are unlikely to offer resistance that will reduce or entirely eliminate their body count.

shawabawa3 13y ago

Do people seriously believe that? Do you really think that the sort of people who would shoot up a classroom will have second thoughts if they think someone else might have a gun?

nsxwolf 13y ago
Yes, per my comment above. They will go places where they won't face interference with their plans - they will choose a restaurant with a "No Guns" sign rather than a police station. You assume there is no rationality behind the suicidal, but there is. Consider the Kamikaze.
- sentenza 13y ago
  I'd say that is wishful thinking. The number of college shooting perpetrators that expected to get away without being killed is most likely zero. Here in Germany there are very few guns. Nonetheless, one of the typical places to go on a rampage is the court house, where you have a 100% likelyhood of armed guards. Also: Didn't the Kamikaze try to crash into heavily armed ships?
  - nsxwolf 13y ago
    I'm not sure what you're arguing. I never said mass shooters expect to get away without being killed. I said they want to be successful - kill as many as they can before they're either killed or shoot themselves when they hear the sirens. My Kamikaze example was merely demonstrating that suicidal people can be rational. In this case, their mission was to attack the battleships, not to attack an unarmed populace.
  - hga 13y ago
    "Here in Germany there are very few guns" Not even close. Official, legally registered guns? Perhaps. But memories are long. Per the Small Arms Survey, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_c... you're in 15th place, tied with Iceland, in a cluster of countries at around 30 per 100 residents also including Uruguay, Sweden, Norway, France, Canada, and Austria. For that matter, as of late Western Europe has been suffering more and worse such incidents than the US, and that includes German school shootings in Winnenden in 2009, Emsdetten in 2006, Rötz in 2005, Coburg in 2003 and Erfurt in 2002 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Europe). 3 of these incidents were small scale, but 2 resulted in 16 and 17 dead respectively, and another miraculously ended with only the shooter killing himself, but 37 injured, 4 students shot, etc. I always find it ... amusing when Germans try to lecture Americans on this topic. Ah, have you stopped institutionizing your seriously mentally ill like the US did starting in the early-mid '60s?
    - sentenza 13y ago
      Uh huh. Do you know when I last time have seen a gun here in Germany, not carried by a police officer? Never. I have never seen a non-official handle a weapon, except on Television. In my life. Oh by the way. Memories are long, sure. I recently read of a big weapons find, in the village next go mine. They found a lot of handguns and military rifles that somebody stashed in a hidden room of an official building at the end of the war. Do you know where those weapons went? Straight to the trash. I don't even know if you can still use a weapon that has just been lying around for seventy years. And what has the mentally ill thing to do with anything? I've been to America. Your mentally ill live in the street. How is that better?
cincinnatus 13y ago
People who are pro ccw have a very cartoonish understanding of the world.
- hga 13y ago
  Utterly appalling that someone who took the nom de plume of cincinnatus would say that. I'm someone who carries concealed every time I step outside my dwelling, unless I have to go to a "Gun Free Zone". Tell me exactly how my understanding of the world is "cartoonish". Use e.g. my past comments as a base. Other sources on request, but as a hint, my login name is the same one I've used since 1978 (sic), my initials.
  - cincinnatus 13y ago
    You may be level headed and well adjusted by surely you've noticed the large number of people who are CCW proponents who are not? More importantly is this; when a gun is part of the equation there is now a non-zero chance someone is going to get shot. The vast majority of the time the only gun in the vicinity is going to be that of the CCW. MOST people go through their entire lives without ever encountering a 'bad guy with a gun'. Ever. People who CCW think they are bringing a gun to a gun fight, when maybe they are bringing a gun to a fist fight, or a stern conversation.
    - hga 13y ago
      "You may be level headed and well adjusted by surely you've noticed the large number of people who are CCW proponents who are not?" Nope. Name names. "More importantly is this; when a gun is part of the equation there is now a non-zero chance someone is going to get shot." Add your comment about a fist fight, which it is well established can be deadly. You're on the side of the criminals, while I'm obviously on the side of the law abiding civilians ... not much point in continuing this "debate".
TallGuyShort 13y ago
It's less silly than thinking the sort of people who would shoot up a classroom will have second thoughts if there is a school policy against having weapons, and less silly than believing the police will always arrive at a mass shooting in time to save a lot of lives.
Beliavsky 13y ago
I think that mass shooters want to kill a lot of people before they die, so the prospect of being stopped before they can do so could be a deterrent.
hga 13y ago
As noted elsewhere, these events are so rare and aberrant that it is difficult to impossible to come to firm conclusions. BUT, we do know these suggestive things: Of the recent, going back quite a ways shootings (I think back to 1989, but maybe post-1966), only the Arizona Congresswoman's was not in a "Gun Free"---except for the active shooter---location. (And if the people right there hadn't stopped the shooter while he was doing a magazine change an armed citizen who showed up while they were still wrestling with him would very likely have.) The Aurora, CO movie theater shooter went significantly out of his way to go to a theater that was so hoplophobic that they required the off-duty police hired as guards to go unarmed (!). All the other local options had no such policies.
Mz 13y ago
Do you really think that the sort of people who would shoot up a classroom will have second thoughts if they think someone else might have a gun? Bullies are almost always cowards. So it seems plausible to me. On the other hand, I think I understand where this piece of satire is coming from. I was a military wife and full-time mom and homemaker for a long time. My dad was career military and grew up on a farm. I grew up with shotguns hanging on the wall of my parent's bedroom. I have been around gun culture but I insisted my husband get rid of the handgun he had for a time because I am clear that if you are not prepared to kill someone when you pull a gun, you best not pull it because you are likely just arming your opponent and escalating the problems. Escalating the arms race rarely leads to promoting the peace. It is unfortunate that satirical pieces of this sort so rarely follow up with commentary on how on promotes the peace after they lambast the idea of arming people to promote peace. But it seems to me that many people who recognize that more guns is not the solution do not know what would be an effective solution, so presumably they simply cannot offer anything more than criticism of the proposed solution. If you do not have an alternative solution to bring to the table, it usually isn't very helpful to shoot down (so to speak) the solution being proposed. But it happens a lot.
GVIrish 13y ago
There was a mall shooting in Portland where the shooter when confronted by an armed citizen, disengaged, then shot himself. http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-s... It seems that these shooters seek out soft targets where they are unlikely to encounter armed resistance. Not saying that we should put an armory in every school, just that these shooters aren't looking to get in a shoot out. If they were they'd go try to shoot up a police station.
mbrameld 13y ago
To play devil's advocate, do people really believe that a person who has made up their mind to go on a shooting spree at their school will change their mind when they realize it is illegal to bring a gun on campus?
- nsxwolf 13y ago
  If a person is determined to break the law against murder, they will have no hesitation to break lesser laws as necessary.
JoeAltmaier 13y ago
The overwhelming number of shootings occur in gun-free zones. Its easy to believe; its true.

Tombone5 13y ago

Indeed: school massacres are driven by individuals acting in a very danger adverse manner.

peatmoss 13y ago
"Holy crap, it's a good guy with a gun! Run away!"