8 ms·

I mean there’s likely no convincing you - but there’s plenty of scholarship to disagree. The Constitution quite clearly gives Congress the power to “coin Money

I mean there’s likely no convincing you - but there’s plenty of scholarship to disagree. The Constitution quite clearly gives Congress the power to “coin Money and regulate the value thereof.” It of course makes no additional statement as to how that should be done. It’s a pretty tortuous reading in my opinion and one that would basically be invalid going back to McCulloch v. Maryland to say that coin Money, must only mean metallic alloy coins. Between Expressed Powers and Necessary and Proper there’s certainly enough justification - it relies even less on the Commerce clause.

logfromblammo 13y ago
Unfortunately, it doesn't matter one little bit if you can convince me or not, as I am neither a federal circuit court judge, appellate judge, or supreme court justice. I think it is less important that our money be a particular commodity than it is that the government lack the power to manipulate its value for its own convenience. In my opinion, it is clear that the power to "coin money and regulate the value thereof" is to standardize the exchange rates between coins, probably by weight of the metal, but not necessarily. It is also clear that the coins need not be metal, but also that no one could be forced to accept coins other than gold or silver coins. Thus, they could stamp out wooden nickels, but that wouldn't make them worth anything to anybody, except possibly for payment of federal taxes. As long as we have those, it is only a short hop to rectangular paper "coins". They can do it, but nobody has to accept them. But since nobody is trying to pay taxes with Bitcoin yet, and the federal government isn't mining them, as far as we know, there is no justification for them to be standardized or otherwise regulated whatsoever. It might arguably be authorized under whatever clause, but it certainly isn't justified.
- Crito 13y ago
  What would be done if massive deposits of precious metals were found, rendering those metals little more valuable than perhaps copper or aluminum? You could still make coins with the same value of course, but they would be a bit impractical to carry around. A copper coin worth $20 in todays USD would weight nearly 3 kilograms! Surely at least paper gold and silver certificates would be a reasonable concession.
  - logfromblammo 13y ago
    Gold and silver certs are negotiable debt instruments, covered by the government's power to borrow. You lend them a gold or silver coin, and they write you a note promising to repay the bearer of the note one gold or silver coin of equal weight on demand. It's sort of a bogus loan, with a variable term and zero interest rate, but it's still allowed, and certainly makes things more convenient for a lot of people. And the government can still profit from the seignorage from the mint.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  > Thus, they could stamp out wooden nickels, but that wouldn't make them worth anything to anybody, except possibly for payment of federal taxes. As long as we have those, it is only a short hop to rectangular paper "coins". They can do it, but nobody has to accept them. Nobody has to accept paper money, either. The only thing "legal tender" laws mean is that if you want to use the power of government to enforce debts, then the government gets to say that its job is done when government-declared legal tender has been presented, whether you accept it or not. If you don't choose to involve the government in your affairs, then legal tender laws don't affect you.

logfromblammo 13y ago

Unfortunately, it doesn't matter one little bit if you can convince me or not, as I am neither a federal circuit court judge, appellate judge, or supreme court justice. I think it is less important that our money be a particular commodity than it is that the government lack the power to manipulate its value for its own convenience. In my opinion, it is clear that the power to "coin money and regulate the value thereof" is to standardize the exchange rates between coins, probably by weight of the metal, but not necessarily. It is also clear that the coins need not be metal, but also that no one could be forced to accept coins other than gold or silver coins. Thus, they could stamp out wooden nickels, but that wouldn't make them worth anything to anybody, except possibly for payment of federal taxes. As long as we have those, it is only a short hop to rectangular paper "coins". They can do it, but nobody has to accept them. But since nobody is trying to pay taxes with Bitcoin yet, and the federal government isn't mining them, as far as we know, there is no justification for them to be standardized or otherwise regulated whatsoever. It might arguably be authorized under whatever clause, but it certainly isn't justified.

Crito 13y ago
What would be done if massive deposits of precious metals were found, rendering those metals little more valuable than perhaps copper or aluminum? You could still make coins with the same value of course, but they would be a bit impractical to carry around. A copper coin worth $20 in todays USD would weight nearly 3 kilograms! Surely at least paper gold and silver certificates would be a reasonable concession.
- logfromblammo 13y ago
  Gold and silver certs are negotiable debt instruments, covered by the government's power to borrow. You lend them a gold or silver coin, and they write you a note promising to repay the bearer of the note one gold or silver coin of equal weight on demand. It's sort of a bogus loan, with a variable term and zero interest rate, but it's still allowed, and certainly makes things more convenient for a lot of people. And the government can still profit from the seignorage from the mint.
dragonwriter 13y ago
> Thus, they could stamp out wooden nickels, but that wouldn't make them worth anything to anybody, except possibly for payment of federal taxes. As long as we have those, it is only a short hop to rectangular paper "coins". They can do it, but nobody has to accept them. Nobody has to accept paper money, either. The only thing "legal tender" laws mean is that if you want to use the power of government to enforce debts, then the government gets to say that its job is done when government-declared legal tender has been presented, whether you accept it or not. If you don't choose to involve the government in your affairs, then legal tender laws don't affect you.