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"Electric cars aren't green" is a myth spread by a few op-ed pieces written in the LA Times and WSJ. The production of a battery is a tiny constant in compariso

by bal00ns 13y ago

"Electric cars aren't green" is a myth spread by a few op-ed pieces written in the LA Times and WSJ. The production of a battery is a tiny constant in comparison to the lifelong use of fossil fuels. Electric vehicles become more environmentally friendly as grid power becomes more renewable, and grid power is becoming more renewable every day. When you invest in an electric vehicle you're investing in the future of renewable energy.

cwal37 13y ago
Specifically, there was a hit-job white paper (I think it was from a marketing firm, can't remember the title) published in the past 5-10 years arguing that Hummers were more eco-friendly than a Prius. The paper was thoroughly debunked, but it got a lot of media traction initially. That sort of headline sticks in the back of someone's mind, particularly if they never follow up on it. EDIT: Right, it was called Dust to Dust. Here's a pretty simple rebuttal from Slate(2008): http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/the_green_lantern/2008/03/tank_vs_hybrid.html http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/the_green_l... And yeah, it was a "market research" firm. I feel confident saying I write with a closer attention to facts and accurate calculations on my personal blog than their "business" did in the report.
morsch 13y ago
> When you invest in an electric vehicle you're investing in the future of renewable energy. Yeah, that's a bit of a stretch. Renewable energy doesn't need electric cars to take off, buying an electric car is not an investment in renewable energy in any real meaningful way. In the meantime, the US grid is currently 12.x% renewable, so you're running on 85+% non-renewable (2012). Not to mention the fact that running all those vehicles off electric would mean adding a huge amount of capacity.[0] So yeah, powerful electric vehicles that enable you to continue to drive around like mad people while actually feeling smug about it is terrible for the environment. Buying non-powerful, non-oversized cars and using them a little bit (or a lot!) less is. We're much better of using the renewable electricity we manage to generate in other ways. [0] To elaborate, electric power makes up about 40% of the total energy budget of the US, transportation makes up about 28% (2008 figures).
- danhak 13y ago
  The main win to me is that electric power is fuel-agnostic. Transitioning to electric mobility means our energy infrastructure can shift to different fuel sources at its own pace, independent of the transportation infrastructure.
- bal00ns 13y ago
  > the US grid is currently 12.x% renewable Overall US power consumption has gone from 8.9% renewables 10 years ago to ~12.2% today. Vehicles that use fossil fuels as their primary source of energy will always make very little use of renewable energy. Electric vehicles have the potential to use solely renewable energy, which is the direction grid power is heading. So should we invest in electric vehicles now, or should we use fossil fuels sparingly and settle with transportation that's unable to tap into renewables? EDIT: 8.9% in 2002
  - morsch 13y ago
    Where are those numbers from? Wikipedia[0] states 8.90% in 2002 to 12.22% in 2012. (Edit: I see we're agreed on that.) Again, that's percent of the total electrical energy generation, not the entire energy budget, which is much higher. I'm fairly optimistic that we'll end up using electrical vehicles down the road. But it's a long way off from becoming a sensible alternative; it'll take a long time to satisfy the current electrical energy requirements by renewables, and adding the transport budget essentially doubles the amount required. And people are deluding themselves if they think they're being environmentally responsible by driving around a Model S. Maybe if you buy a Model S and don't drive it. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_the_United_...
    - bal00ns 13y ago
      > But it's a long way off from becoming a sensible alternative Electric vehicles aren't going to flood the market overnight, just as renewable energy isn't going to suddenly become our primary source of energy. These things take time and money. The more traction we give them, the more attainable they will become. Environmental responsibility isn't possible when you ignore hard facts about the future. By the time I reach old age there will be 2 billion more people on this planet. They are capable of much more damage than we are.
wpietri 13y ago
Really? An environmental analyst friend of mine refers to electrics as "coal-powered cars". E.g., Consumers Power in the midwest: http://www.consumersenergy.com/uploadedFiles/CEWEB/OUR_ENVIRONMENT/Electric-Sources.pdf http://www.consumersenergy.com/uploadedFiles/CEWEB/OUR_ENVIR... I think you're going to have to keep your electric car for a few decades for rewnewables to dominate that.

by bal00ns 13y ago

cwal37 13y ago

Specifically, there was a hit-job white paper (I think it was from a marketing firm, can't remember the title) published in the past 5-10 years arguing that Hummers were more eco-friendly than a Prius. The paper was thoroughly debunked, but it got a lot of media traction initially. That sort of headline sticks in the back of someone's mind, particularly if they never follow up on it. EDIT: Right, it was called Dust to Dust. Here's a pretty simple rebuttal from Slate(2008): http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/the_green_lantern/2008/03/tank_vs_hybrid.html http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/the_green_l... And yeah, it was a "market research" firm. I feel confident saying I write with a closer attention to facts and accurate calculations on my personal blog than their "business" did in the report.

morsch 13y ago

> When you invest in an electric vehicle you're investing in the future of renewable energy. Yeah, that's a bit of a stretch. Renewable energy doesn't need electric cars to take off, buying an electric car is not an investment in renewable energy in any real meaningful way. In the meantime, the US grid is currently 12.x% renewable, so you're running on 85+% non-renewable (2012). Not to mention the fact that running all those vehicles off electric would mean adding a huge amount of capacity.[0] So yeah, powerful electric vehicles that enable you to continue to drive around like mad people while actually feeling smug about it is terrible for the environment. Buying non-powerful, non-oversized cars and using them a little bit (or a lot!) less is. We're much better of using the renewable electricity we manage to generate in other ways. [0] To elaborate, electric power makes up about 40% of the total energy budget of the US, transportation makes up about 28% (2008 figures).

danhak 13y ago
The main win to me is that electric power is fuel-agnostic. Transitioning to electric mobility means our energy infrastructure can shift to different fuel sources at its own pace, independent of the transportation infrastructure.
bal00ns 13y ago
> the US grid is currently 12.x% renewable Overall US power consumption has gone from 8.9% renewables 10 years ago to ~12.2% today. Vehicles that use fossil fuels as their primary source of energy will always make very little use of renewable energy. Electric vehicles have the potential to use solely renewable energy, which is the direction grid power is heading. So should we invest in electric vehicles now, or should we use fossil fuels sparingly and settle with transportation that's unable to tap into renewables? EDIT: 8.9% in 2002
- morsch 13y ago
  Where are those numbers from? Wikipedia[0] states 8.90% in 2002 to 12.22% in 2012. (Edit: I see we're agreed on that.) Again, that's percent of the total electrical energy generation, not the entire energy budget, which is much higher. I'm fairly optimistic that we'll end up using electrical vehicles down the road. But it's a long way off from becoming a sensible alternative; it'll take a long time to satisfy the current electrical energy requirements by renewables, and adding the transport budget essentially doubles the amount required. And people are deluding themselves if they think they're being environmentally responsible by driving around a Model S. Maybe if you buy a Model S and don't drive it. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_the_United_...
  - bal00ns 13y ago
    > But it's a long way off from becoming a sensible alternative Electric vehicles aren't going to flood the market overnight, just as renewable energy isn't going to suddenly become our primary source of energy. These things take time and money. The more traction we give them, the more attainable they will become. Environmental responsibility isn't possible when you ignore hard facts about the future. By the time I reach old age there will be 2 billion more people on this planet. They are capable of much more damage than we are.

wpietri 13y ago

Really? An environmental analyst friend of mine refers to electrics as "coal-powered cars". E.g., Consumers Power in the midwest: http://www.consumersenergy.com/uploadedFiles/CEWEB/OUR_ENVIRONMENT/Electric-Sources.pdf http://www.consumersenergy.com/uploadedFiles/CEWEB/OUR_ENVIR... I think you're going to have to keep your electric car for a few decades for rewnewables to dominate that.