7 ms·

Irony abounds. An article that downplays the status of free speech rights in India and mocks Dr. Subramanian Swamy to make its point conveniently sidesteps the

Irony abounds. An article that downplays the status of free speech rights in India and mocks Dr. Subramanian Swamy to make its point conveniently sidesteps the double standards of US institutions (for e.g., the same Dr. Swamy was sacked from Harvard because of his free speech rights). Better explained in a comment by Pradip4.

EdwardDiego 13y ago
Pointing at America doesn't lessen the issues in India though. It's like me saying that homelessness in my country isn't a problem because there's way more homeless people in the US of A.
sidcool 13y ago
You might be right about US double standards, but that does not mean India can be allowed to trounce free speech.
cshenoy 13y ago
Harvard is a private institution. The US government does not (and cannot) control the actions of Harvard. The first amendment protects our rights to say what we like but that guarantee does not extend to your place of employment. There is no irony or double standard in that.
- xmonkee 13y ago
  Penguin India is also a private institution. The book isn't banned, simply withdrawn by Penguin for what are likely commercial reasons.
  - protomyth 13y ago
    "what are likely commercial reasons" Well, yes, the probability that you will get sued into oblivion because the system of laws doesn't offer free speech protections could be seen as "commercial reasons". The article states as much. A private institution censoring its own is very different than an outside entity forcing censorship via threats of lawsuits.
    - chimeracoder 13y ago
      So I take it that you also opposed Reddit's decision to ban clothed pictures of teenage girls, as well as teenage hentai, which was due to the threat of a slanderous smear campaign from Something Awful users[0]? (Remember that, despite what SA falsely claimed when making these threats, nothing posted on /r/jailbait and the like was actually illegal under US law, and that most of the pictures were in fact reposted from sites like Facebook where they were originally posted by the owner of the photo). [0] http://www.policespecials.com/forum/index.php/topic/126893-somethingawfulcom-stops-widespread-child-pornography-distribution-in-five-hours/ http://www.policespecials.com/forum/index.php/topic/126893-s...
      - protomyth 13y ago
        see my response to einhverfr for further clarification. I have no opinion or desire to learn about this situation to form an opinion.
        sizzle 13y ago
        I'm using this line in the future
        protomyth 13y ago
        I'm not really into researching anything that contains "teenage hentai", sorry.
      - tzs 13y ago
        > Remember that, despite what SA falsely claimed when making these threats, nothing posted on /r/jailbait and the like was actually illegal under US law I'm pretty sure that photos of children who appeared to be around 11 or 12 masturbating each other are illegal under US law, and I saw such photos when I checked out those reddits to see if they were as bad as Something Awful claimed.
    - einhverfr 13y ago
      > A private institution censoring its own is very different than an outside entity forcing censorship via threats of lawsuits. But the lawsuit here is private also though right? How do you separate an incorporated entity from a community? I don't know that this can be reasonably done.
- elnate 13y ago
  Question as an outsider: How does this interact with your right not to be discriminated against in the workplace based on religion or political views?
- sn41 13y ago
  There is. I, as a free speech supporter in India, think that it is ridiculous that you are not allowed free speech in a place where you spend majority of your waking hours. Violations of free speech by private institutions should be a crime, just like labour violations are. It should only take an amendment, there is no fundamental irony. Notice that the state infringes on private parties anyway - the most obvious example is when the state decides to take away children from families if there's harassment of the child at home. I am not debating whether this is right or wrong, but I am just pointing out that the state is not so hands-off as it is generally made out to be.
r0h1n 13y ago
No, irony does not abound. No court or executive or politician or big business intervened to stop Swamy from teaching at Harvard. Instead, its faculty voted [0] to remove his course after he wrote this hateful diatribe [1]. [0] http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2011/12/12/swamy-racism-dismissal/ http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2011/12/12/swamy-racism-di... [1] https://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2011/07/29/how-to-wipe-out-islamic-terror-dr-subramaniam-swamy/ https://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2011/07/29/how-to-wipe-out... Edit: corrected minor typo
xmonkee 13y ago
I agree with you on the hypocrisy of US media on this one. But I still don't understand what Dr swamy finds so objectionable in the book. I've started reading it, and it seems like a very scholarly treatment of the ignored sections in the history of hinduism. Surely Dr swamy understands the importance of protecting controversial academic works?
- EdwardDiego 13y ago
  How accessible is the book to a layman?
  - xmonkee 13y ago
    I will certainly not recommend it as a first book on Hinduism. For that I would probably go with http://www.amazon.com/Philosophies-Religions-India-Yogi-Ramacharaka/dp/0911662057 http://www.amazon.com/Philosophies-Religions-India-Yogi-Rama... . It's a short and concise read and the treatment is a good mix of outsider (the writer is originally a westerner) and insider (he also happens to be a hindu). As a second book, The Hindus is pretty accessible if you're used to reading slightly technical books. Her style is good, and she's absorbed the Indian philosophical writing tradition of using far too many analogies :)
- jetru 13y ago
  Should that matter? Even if he finds something objectionable, it's not his business what others should think. Let others make up their own mind.
  - xmonkee 13y ago
    It definitely shouldn't matter, but I would still like to know what he finds objectionable. He's one of the smartest scholars in Indian politics and his opinions are always interesting, if somewhat controversial.
- cubancigar11 13y ago
  What seems scholarly to you looks extremely offensive to most Hindus. And ultimately it should be Hindus who get to decide the meaning of Hinduism. The over-the-top reaction to what is effectively a caricature in the likes of 'Innocence of Muslims' is enabled because such treatment of Hinduism by Christians has a history, a history that still plays its part in everyday life of Indians (not just Hindus). Point in case, the article talks about the 'criminalization of homosexuality', but fails to mention that it was criminalized by British-raj. Indian judiciary just rejected to get involved into executive branch, a very sensible approach IMHO. The article itself refers to such treatment by naming Edward Said, for example. But then swoops in with personal judgements, calling Rajiv Malhotra's essay as a right-wingist parody and trying to link everything with rise of business-friendly nationalist Modi. This is to be expected. Economical rise of any non-western country has historically correlated with doom-and-gloom about it in articles in western media, whether it is liberal or conservative. Even now it is hard for me to read an article about China in The Economist. Just today I saw an article about Chinese government cracking down on sex-racket, and how it is fomenting unrest and civil disobedience among Chinese.

EdwardDiego 13y ago

Pointing at America doesn't lessen the issues in India though. It's like me saying that homelessness in my country isn't a problem because there's way more homeless people in the US of A.

sidcool 13y ago

You might be right about US double standards, but that does not mean India can be allowed to trounce free speech.

cshenoy 13y ago

Harvard is a private institution. The US government does not (and cannot) control the actions of Harvard. The first amendment protects our rights to say what we like but that guarantee does not extend to your place of employment. There is no irony or double standard in that.

xmonkee 13y ago
Penguin India is also a private institution. The book isn't banned, simply withdrawn by Penguin for what are likely commercial reasons.
- protomyth 13y ago
  "what are likely commercial reasons" Well, yes, the probability that you will get sued into oblivion because the system of laws doesn't offer free speech protections could be seen as "commercial reasons". The article states as much. A private institution censoring its own is very different than an outside entity forcing censorship via threats of lawsuits.
  - chimeracoder 13y ago
    So I take it that you also opposed Reddit's decision to ban clothed pictures of teenage girls, as well as teenage hentai, which was due to the threat of a slanderous smear campaign from Something Awful users[0]? (Remember that, despite what SA falsely claimed when making these threats, nothing posted on /r/jailbait and the like was actually illegal under US law, and that most of the pictures were in fact reposted from sites like Facebook where they were originally posted by the owner of the photo). [0] http://www.policespecials.com/forum/index.php/topic/126893-somethingawfulcom-stops-widespread-child-pornography-distribution-in-five-hours/ http://www.policespecials.com/forum/index.php/topic/126893-s...
    - protomyth 13y ago
      see my response to einhverfr for further clarification. I have no opinion or desire to learn about this situation to form an opinion.
      - sizzle 13y ago
        I'm using this line in the future
        protomyth 13y ago
        I'm not really into researching anything that contains "teenage hentai", sorry.
    - tzs 13y ago
      > Remember that, despite what SA falsely claimed when making these threats, nothing posted on /r/jailbait and the like was actually illegal under US law I'm pretty sure that photos of children who appeared to be around 11 or 12 masturbating each other are illegal under US law, and I saw such photos when I checked out those reddits to see if they were as bad as Something Awful claimed.
  - einhverfr 13y ago
    > A private institution censoring its own is very different than an outside entity forcing censorship via threats of lawsuits. But the lawsuit here is private also though right? How do you separate an incorporated entity from a community? I don't know that this can be reasonably done.
elnate 13y ago
Question as an outsider: How does this interact with your right not to be discriminated against in the workplace based on religion or political views?
sn41 13y ago
There is. I, as a free speech supporter in India, think that it is ridiculous that you are not allowed free speech in a place where you spend majority of your waking hours. Violations of free speech by private institutions should be a crime, just like labour violations are. It should only take an amendment, there is no fundamental irony. Notice that the state infringes on private parties anyway - the most obvious example is when the state decides to take away children from families if there's harassment of the child at home. I am not debating whether this is right or wrong, but I am just pointing out that the state is not so hands-off as it is generally made out to be.

r0h1n 13y ago

No, irony does not abound. No court or executive or politician or big business intervened to stop Swamy from teaching at Harvard. Instead, its faculty voted [0] to remove his course after he wrote this hateful diatribe [1]. [0] http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2011/12/12/swamy-racism-dismissal/ http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2011/12/12/swamy-racism-di... [1] https://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2011/07/29/how-to-wipe-out-islamic-terror-dr-subramaniam-swamy/ https://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2011/07/29/how-to-wipe-out... Edit: corrected minor typo

xmonkee 13y ago

I agree with you on the hypocrisy of US media on this one. But I still don't understand what Dr swamy finds so objectionable in the book. I've started reading it, and it seems like a very scholarly treatment of the ignored sections in the history of hinduism. Surely Dr swamy understands the importance of protecting controversial academic works?

EdwardDiego 13y ago
How accessible is the book to a layman?
- xmonkee 13y ago
  I will certainly not recommend it as a first book on Hinduism. For that I would probably go with http://www.amazon.com/Philosophies-Religions-India-Yogi-Ramacharaka/dp/0911662057 http://www.amazon.com/Philosophies-Religions-India-Yogi-Rama... . It's a short and concise read and the treatment is a good mix of outsider (the writer is originally a westerner) and insider (he also happens to be a hindu). As a second book, The Hindus is pretty accessible if you're used to reading slightly technical books. Her style is good, and she's absorbed the Indian philosophical writing tradition of using far too many analogies :)
jetru 13y ago
Should that matter? Even if he finds something objectionable, it's not his business what others should think. Let others make up their own mind.
- xmonkee 13y ago
  It definitely shouldn't matter, but I would still like to know what he finds objectionable. He's one of the smartest scholars in Indian politics and his opinions are always interesting, if somewhat controversial.
cubancigar11 13y ago
What seems scholarly to you looks extremely offensive to most Hindus. And ultimately it should be Hindus who get to decide the meaning of Hinduism. The over-the-top reaction to what is effectively a caricature in the likes of 'Innocence of Muslims' is enabled because such treatment of Hinduism by Christians has a history, a history that still plays its part in everyday life of Indians (not just Hindus). Point in case, the article talks about the 'criminalization of homosexuality', but fails to mention that it was criminalized by British-raj. Indian judiciary just rejected to get involved into executive branch, a very sensible approach IMHO. The article itself refers to such treatment by naming Edward Said, for example. But then swoops in with personal judgements, calling Rajiv Malhotra's essay as a right-wingist parody and trying to link everything with rise of business-friendly nationalist Modi. This is to be expected. Economical rise of any non-western country has historically correlated with doom-and-gloom about it in articles in western media, whether it is liberal or conservative. Even now it is hard for me to read an article about China in The Economist. Just today I saw an article about Chinese government cracking down on sex-racket, and how it is fomenting unrest and civil disobedience among Chinese.