6 ms·

So your issue is with poverty, and culture not with infrastructure? GDP/capita is pretty shitty in china, I agree. Because time/money ratio is so crap, people

by 2stop 13y ago

So your issue is with poverty, and culture not with infrastructure? GDP/capita is pretty shitty in china, I agree. Because time/money ratio is so crap, people are prepared to spend time, to save/earn more money, hence toll roads being an issue, and house speculation being an issue. But no other country has increased GDP/capita faster than china (and on the scale china has) in the history of GDP/capita records.[0] So exactly what are we criticising? [0] http://www.gapminder.org/world/#$majorMode=chart$is;shi=t;ly=2003;lb=f;il=t;fs=11;al=30;stl=t;st=t;nsl=t;se=t$wst;tts=C$ts;sp=5.59290322580644;ti=2012$zpv;v=0$inc_x;mmid=XCOORDS;iid=ti;by=ind$inc_y;mmid=YCOORDS;iid=phAwcNAVuyj1jiMAkmq1iMg;by=ind$inc_s;uniValue=8.21;iid=phAwcNAVuyj0XOoBL_n5tAQ;by=ind$inc_c;uniValue=255;gid=CATID0;by=grp$map_x;scale=lin;dataMin=1800;dataMax=2012$map_y;scale=log;dataMin=282;dataMax=119849$map_s;sma=1;smi=1$cd;bd=0$inds=i101_t001800,,,,;i44_t001800,,,,;i239_t001800,,, http://www.gapminder.org/world/#$majorMode=chart$is;shi=t;ly...,

seanmcdirmid 13y ago
> Because time/money ratio is so crap, people are prepared to spend time, to save/earn more money, hence toll roads being an issue, and house speculation being an issue. The point is that infrastructure investments are often misdirected, poorly thought out, or plain corrupt. China needs "affordable" housing, not property as "speculation opportunities" (and given that there are so few ways to invest money, this is what happens anyways). China needs low logistic costs, but has some of the highest in the world even with their "great" infrastructure; toll roads represent great skimming opportunities for officials and their families. Truck drivers are stuck in a crappy situation where they are forced to overload their trucks just to make ends meet, and hope the fines on the way (justified or not) don't bankrupt them. > So exactly what are we criticising? We were arguing about whether China's infrastructure investments were wise or not.
- 2stop 13y ago
  > toll roads represent great skimming opportunities for officials and their families Okay, provide some evidence government officials are 'skimming' from (all) toll roads. That's a pretty big claim, and as far as I can tell, the tolls are either private companies or government run tolls, that isn't corruption, that's taxation and enterprise. So they don't have affordable housing because they don't allow enough things to invest in? All truck drivers have to overload their trucks, and hope they don't get fined? China's a big place, are you sure your statements apply across the whole nation. Or are you pretty much referring to domestic problems in a particular city? Housing is not affordable in the Bay Area (SF)... is that also because they don't have enough to invest in? Truck drivers the world over, are over worked, under paid, and have to resort to drugs, over loading, and sleep avoidance to make it... Is that because of corrupt toll road owners? China has (some) the highest logistic costs in the world? Are you sure about that? Can I see a chart of 'world logistic costs'?
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    > the tolls are either private companies or government run tolls, that isn't corruption, that's taxation and enterprise. How do you think business works in China? All of these infrastructure projects are deeply guangxi based, and there is no better guangxi than family (e.g. how all the taxi companies in Beijing are run by official relatives). > So they don't have affordable housing because they don't allow enough things to invest in? Most housing is not built for people to live in, its built as investment vehicles for rich people. This is true even in 2nd tier cities, not just the first tier ones. Its a country wide problem that the government is trying to tackle. > China has (some) the highest logistic costs in the world? Are you sure about that? Can I see a chart of 'world logistic costs'? About 5X of developed country logistic rates. Sure, India might be higher, but China's "great" infrastructure should have lowered logistic costs to developed country levels, and it it hasn't yet (mainly due to corruption). [1] http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2012-04/25/content_15137417.htm http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2012-04/25/content_151...
    - 2stop 13y ago
      > How do you think business works in China? All of these infrastructure projects are deeply guangxi based, and there is no better guangxi than family (e.g. how all the taxi companies in Beijing are run by official relatives). Hate to break it to you, but that's how business is done the world over[1], it's called capitalism, and it's based on the exploitation of the poor (majority) for the benefit of the rich (minority). It isn't unique to china, nor is a fair criticism. Even if we are talking 'actual' corruption (not just your dislike of how capitalism works) toll roads is not where it occurs, it tends to occur in the large state run companies (banks, construction, etc). Road tolls would be small fry to the actual corruption. (Might i add, this has nothing to do with "ghost cities" either). > Most housing is not built for people to live in, its built as investment vehicles for rich people. This is true even in 2nd tier cities, not just the first tier ones. Its a country wide problem that the government is trying to tackle. All housing is built for people to live in. But some rich people use it as a vehicle for investment. Again, but this isn't unique to china. This is a world wide problem (See earlier point about 'how capitalism works'). Showing me an article that show's china's tollways are becoming ever more popular (and profitable)[2], actually refutes your point that no one uses them. (But hey, it does prove your point that they are expensive, but given their growth, not TOO expensive). The example at the end of the article sites the beijing airport toll as: 5 yuan/vehicle (that's < $1 USD, Bigmacs are $15 yuan). For a 30 year period, in order to pay off the 720 million yuan in loans... That seems pretty reasonable to me... am I missing something? Heres a list of toll ways in the US (note they are ALL more expensive than that beijing one): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_toll_roads_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_toll_roads_in_the_Unite... I get that it's trendy these days to call everything out as "MASSIVE CORRUPTION!!!!111" in china. But the reality is, they are doing a pretty decent job. As I said earlier, they've eradicated more poverty, improved health, and grown the economy beyond belief. Corruption I agree is an issue (which is an issue to ALL developing economies). But "ghost cities" are development projects. In 5 years time they'll all be occupied and there will be new 'ghost cities' that will be occupied in 10 years time. Everywhere else in the world, this is called urban planning. But china gets stuck with the "ghost cities" label, because we have to think of everything they do as bad, incompetent, totalitarian and communist. [1] BTW I think you meant nepotism, not Guanxi, given guanxi just means 'relationship' or 'partnership'... basically by definition all business is 'guanxi' based, but that doesn't mean anything. Nepotism on the other hand is a big issue in China (agreed), but it is by no means unique to china... What are the chances that 2 U.S presidents were father/son!? Amazing coincidence no? [2] Also generally if an industry is corrupt, it would declare 'lower' profits (like the chinese banking sector), because people skim out those profits for themselves.

by 2stop 13y ago

seanmcdirmid 13y ago

> Because time/money ratio is so crap, people are prepared to spend time, to save/earn more money, hence toll roads being an issue, and house speculation being an issue. The point is that infrastructure investments are often misdirected, poorly thought out, or plain corrupt. China needs "affordable" housing, not property as "speculation opportunities" (and given that there are so few ways to invest money, this is what happens anyways). China needs low logistic costs, but has some of the highest in the world even with their "great" infrastructure; toll roads represent great skimming opportunities for officials and their families. Truck drivers are stuck in a crappy situation where they are forced to overload their trucks just to make ends meet, and hope the fines on the way (justified or not) don't bankrupt them. > So exactly what are we criticising? We were arguing about whether China's infrastructure investments were wise or not.

2stop 13y ago
> toll roads represent great skimming opportunities for officials and their families Okay, provide some evidence government officials are 'skimming' from (all) toll roads. That's a pretty big claim, and as far as I can tell, the tolls are either private companies or government run tolls, that isn't corruption, that's taxation and enterprise. So they don't have affordable housing because they don't allow enough things to invest in? All truck drivers have to overload their trucks, and hope they don't get fined? China's a big place, are you sure your statements apply across the whole nation. Or are you pretty much referring to domestic problems in a particular city? Housing is not affordable in the Bay Area (SF)... is that also because they don't have enough to invest in? Truck drivers the world over, are over worked, under paid, and have to resort to drugs, over loading, and sleep avoidance to make it... Is that because of corrupt toll road owners? China has (some) the highest logistic costs in the world? Are you sure about that? Can I see a chart of 'world logistic costs'?
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  > the tolls are either private companies or government run tolls, that isn't corruption, that's taxation and enterprise. How do you think business works in China? All of these infrastructure projects are deeply guangxi based, and there is no better guangxi than family (e.g. how all the taxi companies in Beijing are run by official relatives). > So they don't have affordable housing because they don't allow enough things to invest in? Most housing is not built for people to live in, its built as investment vehicles for rich people. This is true even in 2nd tier cities, not just the first tier ones. Its a country wide problem that the government is trying to tackle. > China has (some) the highest logistic costs in the world? Are you sure about that? Can I see a chart of 'world logistic costs'? About 5X of developed country logistic rates. Sure, India might be higher, but China's "great" infrastructure should have lowered logistic costs to developed country levels, and it it hasn't yet (mainly due to corruption). [1] http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2012-04/25/content_15137417.htm http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2012-04/25/content_151...
  - 2stop 13y ago
    > How do you think business works in China? All of these infrastructure projects are deeply guangxi based, and there is no better guangxi than family (e.g. how all the taxi companies in Beijing are run by official relatives). Hate to break it to you, but that's how business is done the world over[1], it's called capitalism, and it's based on the exploitation of the poor (majority) for the benefit of the rich (minority). It isn't unique to china, nor is a fair criticism. Even if we are talking 'actual' corruption (not just your dislike of how capitalism works) toll roads is not where it occurs, it tends to occur in the large state run companies (banks, construction, etc). Road tolls would be small fry to the actual corruption. (Might i add, this has nothing to do with "ghost cities" either). > Most housing is not built for people to live in, its built as investment vehicles for rich people. This is true even in 2nd tier cities, not just the first tier ones. Its a country wide problem that the government is trying to tackle. All housing is built for people to live in. But some rich people use it as a vehicle for investment. Again, but this isn't unique to china. This is a world wide problem (See earlier point about 'how capitalism works'). Showing me an article that show's china's tollways are becoming ever more popular (and profitable)[2], actually refutes your point that no one uses them. (But hey, it does prove your point that they are expensive, but given their growth, not TOO expensive). The example at the end of the article sites the beijing airport toll as: 5 yuan/vehicle (that's < $1 USD, Bigmacs are $15 yuan). For a 30 year period, in order to pay off the 720 million yuan in loans... That seems pretty reasonable to me... am I missing something? Heres a list of toll ways in the US (note they are ALL more expensive than that beijing one): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_toll_roads_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_toll_roads_in_the_Unite... I get that it's trendy these days to call everything out as "MASSIVE CORRUPTION!!!!111" in china. But the reality is, they are doing a pretty decent job. As I said earlier, they've eradicated more poverty, improved health, and grown the economy beyond belief. Corruption I agree is an issue (which is an issue to ALL developing economies). But "ghost cities" are development projects. In 5 years time they'll all be occupied and there will be new 'ghost cities' that will be occupied in 10 years time. Everywhere else in the world, this is called urban planning. But china gets stuck with the "ghost cities" label, because we have to think of everything they do as bad, incompetent, totalitarian and communist. [1] BTW I think you meant nepotism, not Guanxi, given guanxi just means 'relationship' or 'partnership'... basically by definition all business is 'guanxi' based, but that doesn't mean anything. Nepotism on the other hand is a big issue in China (agreed), but it is by no means unique to china... What are the chances that 2 U.S presidents were father/son!? Amazing coincidence no? [2] Also generally if an industry is corrupt, it would declare 'lower' profits (like the chinese banking sector), because people skim out those profits for themselves.