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I lived in Turkey (Istanbul) for one year, made some good friends and was active in the Gezi Park protests. While the country is now highly polarized, all sides

I lived in Turkey (Istanbul) for one year, made some good friends and was active in the Gezi Park protests. While the country is now highly polarized, all sides have some things in common which help explain these measures. Turks typically have a feeling that everybody conspires against them. Not only against the country, but also against them personally. Americans and Jews are always among the prime suspects of any conspiracy. The kemalists have nurtured a strong national identity with flag, anthem, the infallibility of leaders, language and territory. Criticism is simply not welcome, but the internet is full of it. Istanbul, and let alone the rest of Turkey, despite the rich cultural past is not international or multi-cultural. It is a given that most people are inclined to distrust cultures they are not familiar with. None of these factors are exclusive to Erdogan. That helps explain why internet censorship is prevalent in Turkey and does not cause much uproar at all. Now the AKP movement is extra zealous in 'protecting' the people from sex and gambling. That does not help either. * disclaimer: I tired giving a generalizing brief on Turks, plz don't take it personally.

deleted 13y ago
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- royprins 13y ago
  >> I'm not sure what you mean by that. It's not very easy to criticize something/someone in Turkey without being called names (depending on your view), but Kemalists are usually cool with criticisms as long as you're not insulting Ataturk. You may cite the infamous Article 301, but Kemalists did not write that law (I agree that this is debatable). In my experience, there are more discussions that touch on the national psyche. Some things that are barely open to debate are the Kurdish language and territory, the treatment of Armenians (I am avoiding a specific word here), war crimes during the war of independence, a pogrom against Jews and Greeks in the 1950's, purifications in Hatay and Bozcaada. I think all countries have their taboos, but your strong identity does not make discussions easier. >> [Turkey not being multi-cultural] is wrong on so many levels. Turks are very welcoming people and I've never heard one bad thing from my foreign friends who had visited Turkey. Turkey is also known for being multi-cultural. It's even probably more diverse than the US, which is why there are so many problems within the country -- because there are so many voices. Please don't get me wrong on this one. Turks have been very welcoming to me and I loved my time there because of that. Still I wouldn't qualify Istanbul as a multi-cultural city. The Greeks, Jews and Armenians left a long time ago and Turkey never attracted big groups from far-away colonies. Most immigration have been Turks returning from other places. Istanbul is very Turkish. Food, language, (business-)culture. This struck me, coming from Amsterdam and Rotterdam. I am not saying it is good or bad, but definitely different from what I expected. >> This is also not true. In the context you used "uproar" is a relative word, but people did protest the new law and it was probably the biggest one since Gezi Park protests. (May want to read this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/innovations/wp/2014/01/2... http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/innovations/wp/2014/01/2...) Some friends of me were there :) Still the internet (and press) censorship is not a new phenomenon and most people let it slide. In conclusion, I was trying my best to explain to a 'westerner' in what ways our standards do apply to Turkey. If I missed the mark, it is because I also see through western eyes. Don't get me wrong: the power, optimism, camaraderie and restraint that the protestors showed at Gezi was the most beautiful thing I ever experienced. Stay strong: Her yer Taksim, her yer direnis.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - upquark 13y ago
    > The Greeks, Jews and Armenians left a long time ago "Left" is an understatement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Turkey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Turkey > Still I wouldn't qualify Istanbul as a multi-cultural city. I have this theory that social entities, be it countries, ethnicities, or other types of groups, end up with slogans and myths that are designed to counteract the reality about the group. What with America's "land of freedom" and Russia's "wide and generous Russian soul". Similarly, Turkey's "multiculturalism and tolerance". It's part marketing, part self-delusion therapy on the social entity's part to keep it from disintegrating...
blumkvist 13y ago
Hey, thanks for that write up. It is an opportunity I can't resist to see someone who can give me a thorough and relatively objective opinion on a question that has been bugging me for some time. Can you shed some light on the political movements in Turkey regarding its neighbors? How is the Ottoman period perceived. What are the population's general sentiment towards neighboring countries. What do they say about it in their HS History textbooks? I'm born in the region and was always genuinely curious.
- royprins 13y ago
  I cannot avoid generalizations in answering this and I am pretty sure any Turk would be more qualified to answer, but there it goes: I don't think the political movements are really defined by views on foreign policy. Notable exception being Syria which grabs a lot of attention. To the west Turks still see the Balkans as their hinterland. They feel a deep connection to the fate of the Bosnian Muslims and have yet to forgive the Serbs. They are not so fond of Greece (long history), but have a neutral attitude towards Greeks. Bulgaria is viewed an odd little brother from another father. To the north, the wars with Russia have been long forgotten. Russia now represents a big economical opportunity. I wouldn't think that Russians and Turks are very compatible characters, but business is business. To the east there are some Turkic countries with whom the Turks feel a spiritual connection, starting with Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan. They represent the ideal of the nomadic society from the historic homelands. Georgia is a bit like Bulgaria. Armenia, they would rather forget about. Too many open wounds. Iran is a dangerous country. Militarily mighty, unreliable and very different. The south represents economic opportunities. The Arabs are basically walking bags of money. I was surprised by the deep connection the Turks felt towards the Syrians. They have been very welcoming towards the refugees. About the Ottoman period. There is a feeling that Turkey's rightful role is to lead the region once again. Not that it means that the Ottomans sultans should make a comeback. Although one of the most popular TV series is set in the Ottoman era. People love the costumes and the court intriges. I don't know how the history books teach about this period. Would be very interesting.
  - blumkvist 13y ago
    I really appreciate the answer.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

royprins 13y ago
>> I'm not sure what you mean by that. It's not very easy to criticize something/someone in Turkey without being called names (depending on your view), but Kemalists are usually cool with criticisms as long as you're not insulting Ataturk. You may cite the infamous Article 301, but Kemalists did not write that law (I agree that this is debatable). In my experience, there are more discussions that touch on the national psyche. Some things that are barely open to debate are the Kurdish language and territory, the treatment of Armenians (I am avoiding a specific word here), war crimes during the war of independence, a pogrom against Jews and Greeks in the 1950's, purifications in Hatay and Bozcaada. I think all countries have their taboos, but your strong identity does not make discussions easier. >> [Turkey not being multi-cultural] is wrong on so many levels. Turks are very welcoming people and I've never heard one bad thing from my foreign friends who had visited Turkey. Turkey is also known for being multi-cultural. It's even probably more diverse than the US, which is why there are so many problems within the country -- because there are so many voices. Please don't get me wrong on this one. Turks have been very welcoming to me and I loved my time there because of that. Still I wouldn't qualify Istanbul as a multi-cultural city. The Greeks, Jews and Armenians left a long time ago and Turkey never attracted big groups from far-away colonies. Most immigration have been Turks returning from other places. Istanbul is very Turkish. Food, language, (business-)culture. This struck me, coming from Amsterdam and Rotterdam. I am not saying it is good or bad, but definitely different from what I expected. >> This is also not true. In the context you used "uproar" is a relative word, but people did protest the new law and it was probably the biggest one since Gezi Park protests. (May want to read this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/innovations/wp/2014/01/2... http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/innovations/wp/2014/01/2...) Some friends of me were there :) Still the internet (and press) censorship is not a new phenomenon and most people let it slide. In conclusion, I was trying my best to explain to a 'westerner' in what ways our standards do apply to Turkey. If I missed the mark, it is because I also see through western eyes. Don't get me wrong: the power, optimism, camaraderie and restraint that the protestors showed at Gezi was the most beautiful thing I ever experienced. Stay strong: Her yer Taksim, her yer direnis.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- upquark 13y ago
  > The Greeks, Jews and Armenians left a long time ago "Left" is an understatement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Turkey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Turkey > Still I wouldn't qualify Istanbul as a multi-cultural city. I have this theory that social entities, be it countries, ethnicities, or other types of groups, end up with slogans and myths that are designed to counteract the reality about the group. What with America's "land of freedom" and Russia's "wide and generous Russian soul". Similarly, Turkey's "multiculturalism and tolerance". It's part marketing, part self-delusion therapy on the social entity's part to keep it from disintegrating...

blumkvist 13y ago

Hey, thanks for that write up. It is an opportunity I can't resist to see someone who can give me a thorough and relatively objective opinion on a question that has been bugging me for some time. Can you shed some light on the political movements in Turkey regarding its neighbors? How is the Ottoman period perceived. What are the population's general sentiment towards neighboring countries. What do they say about it in their HS History textbooks? I'm born in the region and was always genuinely curious.

royprins 13y ago
I cannot avoid generalizations in answering this and I am pretty sure any Turk would be more qualified to answer, but there it goes: I don't think the political movements are really defined by views on foreign policy. Notable exception being Syria which grabs a lot of attention. To the west Turks still see the Balkans as their hinterland. They feel a deep connection to the fate of the Bosnian Muslims and have yet to forgive the Serbs. They are not so fond of Greece (long history), but have a neutral attitude towards Greeks. Bulgaria is viewed an odd little brother from another father. To the north, the wars with Russia have been long forgotten. Russia now represents a big economical opportunity. I wouldn't think that Russians and Turks are very compatible characters, but business is business. To the east there are some Turkic countries with whom the Turks feel a spiritual connection, starting with Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan. They represent the ideal of the nomadic society from the historic homelands. Georgia is a bit like Bulgaria. Armenia, they would rather forget about. Too many open wounds. Iran is a dangerous country. Militarily mighty, unreliable and very different. The south represents economic opportunities. The Arabs are basically walking bags of money. I was surprised by the deep connection the Turks felt towards the Syrians. They have been very welcoming towards the refugees. About the Ottoman period. There is a feeling that Turkey's rightful role is to lead the region once again. Not that it means that the Ottomans sultans should make a comeback. Although one of the most popular TV series is set in the Ottoman era. People love the costumes and the court intriges. I don't know how the history books teach about this period. Would be very interesting.
- blumkvist 13y ago
  I really appreciate the answer.