5 ms·

This time round things could be very different. Remember how the Cyprus savings confiscations in 2013 provoked a previously unseen rally on bitcoin [1]. When Ar

This time round things could be very different. Remember how the Cyprus savings confiscations in 2013 provoked a previously unseen rally on bitcoin [1]. When Argentina's financial system implodes a significant part of the economy could well switch to bitcoin [2]. For many in Argentina this would be a better option than 'rebooting' yet again into fiat. [1] http://siliconangle.com/blog/2013/03/21/bitcoin-value-hits-70-and-keeps-climbing-cyprus-bailout-connection-speculated/ http://siliconangle.com/blog/2013/03/21/bitcoin-value-hits-7... [2] http://www.latinvex.com/app/article.aspx?id=1170 http://www.latinvex.com/app/article.aspx?id=1170

wslh 13y ago
Bitcoin is not the solution. Good HN threads: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7100394 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7100394 (search for the bitcoin threads) EDIT: surprised that someone downvoted this comment.
- msandford 13y ago
  It's outside government control and in Argentina government control is the problem. So it sounds like it would be a hell of a lot better than just rebooting the currency again and just hoping that the government doesn't screw it up this time.
  - wslh 13y ago
    Your comment is answered in the posted link. Basically Argentinians love dollars and we are not rational. Also bitcoin fluctuations and the difficulty to buy and sell bitcoins with a local bank account makes the innitiative very limited.
    - msandford 13y ago
      I think you're referring more to this link about the difficulty of Argentinians getting their hands on bitcoin. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7100504 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7100504 Even if that's true (there are ways, though) that doesn't somehow negate the idea that it would be better for the normal person on the street to be able to use a currency that -- while volatile -- retains its value better than the peso. The idea isn't that the US Government will step in there and say "Here's some bitcoins use these instead" but rather that the people will decide to end up using them on their own, irrespective of policy. Argentinians love dollars because compared to the peso they're a "safe" store of value that's not under the control of their government, and because so many people will accept them. Dollars are the de-facto secondary currency not because of policy but because of people. There's nothing that would prevent the people from deciding to use bitcoin or dogecoin or litecoin or argecoin if they so decided in the future.
      - wslh 13y ago
        In Argentina few people have some idea about basic finance so it would take a lot of time to change their minds. Specifically speaking about bitcoins, the fluctuation makes it crazy to use it as a currency, is currentl much more risky than the dollar.
        msandford 13y ago
        You say it would take a long time and under normal circumstances I agree. But if there were another "reboot the peso" event the possibility of having a real alternative to simply losing your life savings could be very interesting to people. It's amazing how fast people learn when the impact is really large. Not everyone, of course, but many. Bitcoin could easily "go viral" in Argentina the same way cat videos do here in the US.
        wslh 13y ago
        Say you buy a bitcoin for $ 1000 one day and the next week is at $ 600. Would you prefer bitcoins or dollars?
        thisiswrong 13y ago
        You tell me!? The USD is being deflated like crazy & prone to collapse anytime soon [1]. While Bitcoin has seen 1000% annual increases. [1] http://mises.ca/posts/blog/murdoch-tweets-about-money-printing-and-inflation-reality-wont-be-far-behind/ http://mises.ca/posts/blog/murdoch-tweets-about-money-printi...
        wslh 13y ago
        Just imagine if the US or another country outlaws the bitcoin. At the end I can bet you $ 5000 that the bitcoin will be marginal in Argentina in the next 5 years. Do you accept?
        conanbatt 13y ago
coldtea 13y ago
>When Argentina's financial system implodes a significant part of the economy could well switch to bitcoin [2]. For many in Argentina this would be a better option than 'rebooting' yet again into fiat. Yes. It's not gonna happen. What currency to turn your money into is irrelevant if you have the money. There have been alternatives to the official currency for millenia. Not to mention when it's a matter of life and death to have access to that money, the slowness of Bitcoin exchange, as well as the volatility of the currency, are not benefits at all. What happens when it drops 20% or 80%, as could very well happen? It's neither established enough nor stable enough to give any guarantees. Better turn to the us dollar or other options. Here's how easy it is, even from TFA: >[Argentina] is the only place we know where you get better banking services out on the sidewalk than in the bank. Every time we go we take a big wad of green pieces of paper with Ben Franklin's picture on them. Driving directly to the town square in Salta (close to the family ranch), we then simply stop the truck and beckon over one of the many black-market moneychangers standing in front of the bank. P.S As for the "Cyprus savings confiscations in 2013 provoking a previously unseen rally on bitcoin", that didn't happen by Cypriots. The kind of people who buy gold (light survavivalists) decided to ramp up on it -- still an insignificant amount, not even to the global economy but even to Cyprus' economy.
- thisiswrong 13y ago
  While you provide some solid arguments, I feel that you are overlooking certain key elements. I myself feel that the likelihood of Argentina switching to BTC after its upcoming financial collapse is quite low. However I feel that certain niche sectors of the economy could well jump to using BTC. The points that you overlook are: [1] The USD is currently being deflated like never before and could potentially collapse without warning. Thus making it increasingly unattractive to hold over long periods. [2] Argentina's online economy has recently suffered a huge blow with taxes for online purchases outside of the country. BTC is already becoming the international 'money of the internet'. [3] Most importantly, Bitcoin volatility has been decreasing over time as the price & adoption increases. This is something that shouldn't be overlooked as it has huge implications for the pricing of goods and services in BTC. [4] Finally, there are many ways to do fast transactions in BTC. Have you ever tried sending BTC from one android wallet to another? It comes through instantly. Granted that larger BTC transfers would still require more confirmations though. Off-blockchain transaction services could also kickoff soon. [1] http://mises.ca/posts/blog/murdoch-tweets-about-money-printing-and-inflation-reality-wont-be-far-behind/ http://mises.ca/posts/blog/murdoch-tweets-about-money-printi... [2] http://www.npr.org/2014/01/23/265195791/argentina-imposes-heavy-tax-on-international-online-shopping http://www.npr.org/2014/01/23/265195791/argentina-imposes-he... [3] http://elidourado.com/blog/bitcoin-volatility/ http://elidourado.com/blog/bitcoin-volatility/ [4] http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/11602/how-does-bitpay-manage-to-confirm-transactions-so-fast-less-than-a-minute http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/11602/how-does-bi...

wslh 13y ago

Bitcoin is not the solution. Good HN threads: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7100394 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7100394 (search for the bitcoin threads) EDIT: surprised that someone downvoted this comment.

msandford 13y ago
It's outside government control and in Argentina government control is the problem. So it sounds like it would be a hell of a lot better than just rebooting the currency again and just hoping that the government doesn't screw it up this time.
- wslh 13y ago
  Your comment is answered in the posted link. Basically Argentinians love dollars and we are not rational. Also bitcoin fluctuations and the difficulty to buy and sell bitcoins with a local bank account makes the innitiative very limited.
  - msandford 13y ago
    I think you're referring more to this link about the difficulty of Argentinians getting their hands on bitcoin. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7100504 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7100504 Even if that's true (there are ways, though) that doesn't somehow negate the idea that it would be better for the normal person on the street to be able to use a currency that -- while volatile -- retains its value better than the peso. The idea isn't that the US Government will step in there and say "Here's some bitcoins use these instead" but rather that the people will decide to end up using them on their own, irrespective of policy. Argentinians love dollars because compared to the peso they're a "safe" store of value that's not under the control of their government, and because so many people will accept them. Dollars are the de-facto secondary currency not because of policy but because of people. There's nothing that would prevent the people from deciding to use bitcoin or dogecoin or litecoin or argecoin if they so decided in the future.
    - wslh 13y ago
      In Argentina few people have some idea about basic finance so it would take a lot of time to change their minds. Specifically speaking about bitcoins, the fluctuation makes it crazy to use it as a currency, is currentl much more risky than the dollar.
      - msandford 13y ago
        You say it would take a long time and under normal circumstances I agree. But if there were another "reboot the peso" event the possibility of having a real alternative to simply losing your life savings could be very interesting to people. It's amazing how fast people learn when the impact is really large. Not everyone, of course, but many. Bitcoin could easily "go viral" in Argentina the same way cat videos do here in the US.
        wslh 13y ago
        Say you buy a bitcoin for $ 1000 one day and the next week is at $ 600. Would you prefer bitcoins or dollars?
        thisiswrong 13y ago
        You tell me!? The USD is being deflated like crazy & prone to collapse anytime soon [1]. While Bitcoin has seen 1000% annual increases. [1] http://mises.ca/posts/blog/murdoch-tweets-about-money-printing-and-inflation-reality-wont-be-far-behind/ http://mises.ca/posts/blog/murdoch-tweets-about-money-printi...
        wslh 13y ago
        Just imagine if the US or another country outlaws the bitcoin. At the end I can bet you $ 5000 that the bitcoin will be marginal in Argentina in the next 5 years. Do you accept?
        conanbatt 13y ago

coldtea 13y ago

>When Argentina's financial system implodes a significant part of the economy could well switch to bitcoin [2]. For many in Argentina this would be a better option than 'rebooting' yet again into fiat. Yes. It's not gonna happen. What currency to turn your money into is irrelevant if you have the money. There have been alternatives to the official currency for millenia. Not to mention when it's a matter of life and death to have access to that money, the slowness of Bitcoin exchange, as well as the volatility of the currency, are not benefits at all. What happens when it drops 20% or 80%, as could very well happen? It's neither established enough nor stable enough to give any guarantees. Better turn to the us dollar or other options. Here's how easy it is, even from TFA: >[Argentina] is the only place we know where you get better banking services out on the sidewalk than in the bank. Every time we go we take a big wad of green pieces of paper with Ben Franklin's picture on them. Driving directly to the town square in Salta (close to the family ranch), we then simply stop the truck and beckon over one of the many black-market moneychangers standing in front of the bank. P.S As for the "Cyprus savings confiscations in 2013 provoking a previously unseen rally on bitcoin", that didn't happen by Cypriots. The kind of people who buy gold (light survavivalists) decided to ramp up on it -- still an insignificant amount, not even to the global economy but even to Cyprus' economy.

thisiswrong 13y ago
While you provide some solid arguments, I feel that you are overlooking certain key elements. I myself feel that the likelihood of Argentina switching to BTC after its upcoming financial collapse is quite low. However I feel that certain niche sectors of the economy could well jump to using BTC. The points that you overlook are: [1] The USD is currently being deflated like never before and could potentially collapse without warning. Thus making it increasingly unattractive to hold over long periods. [2] Argentina's online economy has recently suffered a huge blow with taxes for online purchases outside of the country. BTC is already becoming the international 'money of the internet'. [3] Most importantly, Bitcoin volatility has been decreasing over time as the price & adoption increases. This is something that shouldn't be overlooked as it has huge implications for the pricing of goods and services in BTC. [4] Finally, there are many ways to do fast transactions in BTC. Have you ever tried sending BTC from one android wallet to another? It comes through instantly. Granted that larger BTC transfers would still require more confirmations though. Off-blockchain transaction services could also kickoff soon. [1] http://mises.ca/posts/blog/murdoch-tweets-about-money-printing-and-inflation-reality-wont-be-far-behind/ http://mises.ca/posts/blog/murdoch-tweets-about-money-printi... [2] http://www.npr.org/2014/01/23/265195791/argentina-imposes-heavy-tax-on-international-online-shopping http://www.npr.org/2014/01/23/265195791/argentina-imposes-he... [3] http://elidourado.com/blog/bitcoin-volatility/ http://elidourado.com/blog/bitcoin-volatility/ [4] http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/11602/how-does-bitpay-manage-to-confirm-transactions-so-fast-less-than-a-minute http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/11602/how-does-bi...