7 ms·

Of course I wonder which path you went through, it is the point of this discussion, and for all the rampant no-holds-barred religion bashing HN usually sees, th

Of course I wonder which path you went through, it is the point of this discussion, and for all the rampant no-holds-barred religion bashing HN usually sees, this is still an above-average forum for this kind of discussion. I would really like to hear about that, with the only rule that neither of us should try and convince anyone else, and all we say is to be taken strictly personally. I will start by saying that I actually went through the realization that I had no evidence or need for the supernatural about 1 year ago, at 35 and counting, after reading The God Delusion and then starting my own research path across philosophy, theology and science. I feel like I have reached a conclusion, albeit just a personal one.

sdegutis 13y ago
I was raised somewhere between theist and deist, with only the belief that there is some "God" and if you're good you go to Heaven, otherwise Hell. That was it. Before my digits were yet two, I started reasoning about all of this on my own, and came to my own conclusions on them, which were basically uninformed. In my teenage years, I experimented with atheism and settled on agnosticism. Just a few years ago in my middle-adulthood, I turned to "God and Jesus" in a desperate attempt to keep sanity during really hard times (my wife and kids and I were in the brink of homelessness, with no job and almost no cash, 9000 miles away from home). I really believed it was a mental coping mechanism, but I didn't care at that point. Our situation resolved, and I ended up returning back to my agnosticism. But existential panic attacks sent me searching more fervently for an answer. I reached out to a non-denominational (i.e. Protestant) pastor, telling him that I wanted to believe in Christianity, but I couldn't violate my integrity, knowing that it's incompatible with science and history. He gave me a book called The Reason for God[1] which demonstrated that Christianity doesn't conflict with science, and that the Resurrection of Jesus is historically true and accurate as presented in the Gospels. When I finished reading it, I chose to become a Christian. Eventually, as I kept researching different denominations, I settled on Catholicism as the most likely to be correct. For other Christians curious how I could come to that conclusion, I would recommend The Catholic Controversy[2] by St. Francis de Sales. [1]: http://www.amazon.com/The-Reason-God-Belief-Skepticism/dp/1594483493 http://www.amazon.com/The-Reason-God-Belief-Skepticism/dp/15... [2]: http://www.amazon.com/The-Catholic-Controversy-Defense-Faith/dp/0895553872 http://www.amazon.com/The-Catholic-Controversy-Defense-Faith...
- belluchan 13y ago
  How do you "experiment" with atheism? Just saying to yourself "I'm now an atheist" and seeing how that feels? It doesn't sound like you ever had solid rational and empirical reasons for choosing atheism, and indeed that is the only kind of atheist that I've ever heard of turning to the supernatural. Atheists like me are atheists not because the quality of life it provides, but because there's no empirical evidence that there's any truth to any of the supernatural claims ever made. We understand that faith is a choice of last resort when no other evidence is available, and that faith is a really bad way to come to conclusions. Atheists like me understand our inherent biases, we seek to ask questions in a way that there can be a negative answer. There is no such negating answer to "what would convince me there is no god" and that alone, in the absence of any kind of empirical evidence for the existence of a supernatural entity, should be enough to not be a believer. The truth is whatever the truth is, and I want to believe reality no matter how it makes me feel. If it feels good to believe in magical things that care about us but those magical things aren't real then I don't want to believe in them. The litany of Tarski is useful: If the box contains a diamond, I desire to believe that the box contains a diamond; If the box does not contain a diamond, I desire to believe that the box does not contain a diamond; Let me not become attached to beliefs I may not want.
  - sdegutis 13y ago
    By "experiment" I mean I started questioning whether or not it was true, debating with my peers about it (either for or against). I ultimately settled on agnosticism because absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If there was a God who chose to never reveal (or even hint at) his existence to humanity, it would be incorrect for a person to be an atheist. Since that's a legitimate possibility, it makes more sense to be agnostic than atheist.
    - belluchan 13y ago
      So what evidence did you eventually find to turn to God if it's not a feelings/faith based thing?

sdegutis 13y ago

I was raised somewhere between theist and deist, with only the belief that there is some "God" and if you're good you go to Heaven, otherwise Hell. That was it. Before my digits were yet two, I started reasoning about all of this on my own, and came to my own conclusions on them, which were basically uninformed. In my teenage years, I experimented with atheism and settled on agnosticism. Just a few years ago in my middle-adulthood, I turned to "God and Jesus" in a desperate attempt to keep sanity during really hard times (my wife and kids and I were in the brink of homelessness, with no job and almost no cash, 9000 miles away from home). I really believed it was a mental coping mechanism, but I didn't care at that point. Our situation resolved, and I ended up returning back to my agnosticism. But existential panic attacks sent me searching more fervently for an answer. I reached out to a non-denominational (i.e. Protestant) pastor, telling him that I wanted to believe in Christianity, but I couldn't violate my integrity, knowing that it's incompatible with science and history. He gave me a book called The Reason for God[1] which demonstrated that Christianity doesn't conflict with science, and that the Resurrection of Jesus is historically true and accurate as presented in the Gospels. When I finished reading it, I chose to become a Christian. Eventually, as I kept researching different denominations, I settled on Catholicism as the most likely to be correct. For other Christians curious how I could come to that conclusion, I would recommend The Catholic Controversy[2] by St. Francis de Sales. [1]: http://www.amazon.com/The-Reason-God-Belief-Skepticism/dp/1594483493 http://www.amazon.com/The-Reason-God-Belief-Skepticism/dp/15... [2]: http://www.amazon.com/The-Catholic-Controversy-Defense-Faith/dp/0895553872 http://www.amazon.com/The-Catholic-Controversy-Defense-Faith...

belluchan 13y ago
How do you "experiment" with atheism? Just saying to yourself "I'm now an atheist" and seeing how that feels? It doesn't sound like you ever had solid rational and empirical reasons for choosing atheism, and indeed that is the only kind of atheist that I've ever heard of turning to the supernatural. Atheists like me are atheists not because the quality of life it provides, but because there's no empirical evidence that there's any truth to any of the supernatural claims ever made. We understand that faith is a choice of last resort when no other evidence is available, and that faith is a really bad way to come to conclusions. Atheists like me understand our inherent biases, we seek to ask questions in a way that there can be a negative answer. There is no such negating answer to "what would convince me there is no god" and that alone, in the absence of any kind of empirical evidence for the existence of a supernatural entity, should be enough to not be a believer. The truth is whatever the truth is, and I want to believe reality no matter how it makes me feel. If it feels good to believe in magical things that care about us but those magical things aren't real then I don't want to believe in them. The litany of Tarski is useful: If the box contains a diamond, I desire to believe that the box contains a diamond; If the box does not contain a diamond, I desire to believe that the box does not contain a diamond; Let me not become attached to beliefs I may not want.
- sdegutis 13y ago
  By "experiment" I mean I started questioning whether or not it was true, debating with my peers about it (either for or against). I ultimately settled on agnosticism because absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If there was a God who chose to never reveal (or even hint at) his existence to humanity, it would be incorrect for a person to be an atheist. Since that's a legitimate possibility, it makes more sense to be agnostic than atheist.
  - belluchan 13y ago
    So what evidence did you eventually find to turn to God if it's not a feelings/faith based thing?