7 ms·

So I understand that on of the main points of contention is that the paris cab drivers face steep regulation in the form of requiring an expensive license, whil

So I understand that on of the main points of contention is that the paris cab drivers face steep regulation in the form of requiring an expensive license, while the Uber drivers require no such license, and that to counter this lack of regulation they require the Uber drivers to wait 15minutes before picking up their customer. But there are still a few things I don't understand: Why do the Paris cab drivers require such regulations? How come the Uber drivers aren't required to have such a license? And maybe I don't completely understand the advantages of Uber (because I've never used a cab before), but at first glance, it seems the main reason uber is succeeding so well, is that there is an app to quickly summon a driver. So why doesn't such an app exist to call these licensed drivers who are so angry?

stereo 13y ago
The licenses are limited in number, and re-sold. They’re seen by taxi drivers as a kind of life insurance. Talk about abolishing them or issuing more and, you guessed it, they’ll strike.
- dmix 13y ago
  This is why regulation is more often bad than good. It always starts out with great intentions and often works well in the beginning, then crumbles over time either do to it's own bureaucracy, it's selective enforcement, or it's crippling effect on technology or markets. In addition, it's always difficult to evolve the law with the times, or remove it entirely, than to create new ones. So we're left with an ever-growing legacy of non-productive policy.
  - john_b 13y ago
    In general market regulations start out with good intentions, but the protection they afford specific groups eventually tends to seen as a sacred right by those groups. Especially after the first generation--those who could still remember a time without that regulation--have passed on. The type of regulations that can work well are those that benefit a large number of diverse groups (i.e. financial regulations preventing banks from doing stupid things with their customers' money) whose interests are so poorly correlated that they cannot effectively organize for a monopoly on some special privelege.
maerF0x0 13y ago
I cant speak directly for Paris, but in my home town, one reason we limit the number of taxi cabs is because we've decided (as a society regulating itself) that too many cabs is a social problem. It may sound funny, but imagine a case where there is a lineup of 200 cabs clogging the airport to get that one lucrative fare. Alternatively, outside of a office building to aim for CEOs. They take up a common good that is free (space and to some extent air quality) and therefore are a tragedy of the commons case.
- grimtrigger 13y ago
  simple solutions: a gasoline tax or car tax. These are problems with cars, not just taxis/ubers.
  - JonFish85 13y ago
    I disagree--the problems mentioned were specifically cabs, not cars.
- nknighthb 13y ago
  Have you experienced "too many cabs"? How do you know the "social problems" aren't just imagined? How do you know they cannot be controlled in other ways? You imagine "200 cabs clogging the airport" -- have you seen how cabs work in places where they are plentiful? There's no point in having 200 at an airport at once. They don't take passengers at random, they line up and wait their turn. If there are a lot of cabs at an airport, the drivers will be better off going into the city and finding a fare there than waiting in a line of 200 cabs. If there is actually such demand that 200 would "clog" the airport at once, they're obviously solving a problem that isn't being solved by alternative means, such as cheaper and more efficient busses and trains. Why would drivers aim for CEOs? Cab fares are regulated, so that just leaves tips (something not even customary in many places). They'll get more in a couple hours driving around than waiting for the lottery in the form of an abnormally generous CEO.
  - bunderbunder 13y ago
    This is a good point. In most cities, cabs do not go to the airport unless they have to. It just isn't a good use of their time - if you drive all the way out there with an empty cab, you've just sunk a whole lot of gas and time on a deadhead when you could have spent the same on picking up several fares downtown. And even when you have someone who wants a ride out to the airport, it's not necessarily something you want to do because then for a return fare you've got to go to the cab stand and take whoever you get wherever they want to go - which could be somewhere way out in the weeds so you still end up stuck with a dead head. That's the reason why in most cities there are actual laws on the books saying cab drivers aren't allowed to refuse to take you to the airport - without those laws, many of them would.
ig1 13y ago
Taxis are regulated in most countries, typically in exchange for a fee and following a set of regulation they'll get the exclusive right to pick up people on the street. The precise regulations vary but generally the type of things they include are: * Criminal background check * Level of city knowledge * State of car * Prohibited to refuse to pick someone up * Prohibited to refuse short journeys * Regulated pricing * Rules on detours
- Sanddancer 13y ago
  I'd argue that a system that tests on practical taxi driving, such as London's Knowledge would be a much more useful way of vetting taxi drivers than Paris' system of limiting it to whoever can pay a quarter million euros for a medallion.
  - brohee 13y ago
    There is an additional, pretty hard to pass exam.
- bertil 13y ago
  I can certify that taxi drivers in Paris casually refuse more than half their rides, based on skin color alone — and openly confess that to anyone, no need to ask — and they have committed enough road infraction in any sitting to loose their driving license for good.
  - brohee 13y ago
    Not my experience, but seriously, report them, it's obviously illegal.
    - bertil 13y ago
      I generally use taxis when I'm late for a plane, so the only thing I could do was call: - Police department say they see issues frequently, but clients are often foreigners, and unable to testify; - the head office, G7 (because they need to be named and shamed) reaction was that hiring and paying road criminals was not their concern. After making that phone call several times, I support long prison sentences for the executives of that company.
mattlutze 13y ago
Paris has an incredibly strong Taxi union, which has enjoyed it's monopoly for many decades. Uber cars not being unionized means they are taking money from this massive institution. I think, quite simply, it's cronyism. Also, the 15 minute wait is because the taxis-by-dispatch are inherently slower. Instead of trying to compete, the taxi union pushed hard on Paris and got them to pass the restriction. Generally, rather than innovating and trying to compete, the taxi companies in the union have taken the much simpler route of attempting to blockade the upstart.
- caruber 13y ago
  Taxi Unions have dog in the fight. They have paid hefty licensing fees to the govt and ask for rights in return. If uber pays 1M $ OR 500K Euros for every taxi license, uber will ask much more than what Taxi unions are asking for. The other way to solve the issue is let govt repay the money to taxi owners and allow everybody to compete on equal footing.
  - sologoub 13y ago
    Do you have a source for the $1M taxi license claim? Don't see how this can provide any reasonable ROI… or is this for a large cab company? EDIT: a below comment posted that it's 230k Euros max in Paris...
    - caruber 13y ago
      Sorry i was not clear. 1 M price tag is for NYC medallion. This article quotes 250K Euros for taxi license in Paris: http://www.rudebaguette.com/2013/08/07/anatomy-of-the-paris-taxi-market-past-present-future/ http://www.rudebaguette.com/2013/08/07/anatomy-of-the-paris-...
- julienchastang 13y ago
  Agreed. The taxi situation in Paris has been a pain in the ass for a long time. Ever try to get a taxi to go to the train station or airport on a busy day? Sometimes you can't get one b/c of the artificially low number of taxis in Paris. Each successive government in France tries to do something about the taxi unions and fails. Uber will succeed hopefully. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324557804578371641523013604 http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142412788732455780...
stonemetal 13y ago
The problem with cabs is when they are circulating looking for work. They are causing congestion for no real benefit. Regulation caps how much useless congestion there is by capping the number of cabs on the road. Limo companies don't cause this unneeded congestion because they only go out when they have a job to do, so there is no need to regulate the number of limos on the street. Whether or not Uber should be regulated depends on what their drivers do with their down time. Do they trawl the streets or do they get off of them? It seems like they should get off the road since they can't really pick people up without a reservation. However they may trawl good spots for pickups like near bars or something in which case they are causing unneeded traffic and should be regulated.
- harshpotatoes 13y ago
  That makes sense. So i guess from the perspective of the regulators the options are now either prevent the uber cabs from being flagged down from the street to remove the incentive to roam the street and keep the limo/cab markets separate and ensure the streets remain clearish. Or, remove the regulations, find some way to appease the old cabbies (refund the large license fee), and hope the lack of regulation does not cause huge traffic problems (maybe ticket loitering or cruising, as done in some small towns).
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- dnautics 13y ago
  most limo services (don't know about uber) offer fixed rates (time or distance). Since Taxis pick you up and start running a taximeter to charge you, that's something that needs to be regulated to make sure that they don't stiff you. If a limo service shows you the route and gives you a quote on the cost, then there would be no need for that level of regulation as well. There are some regulations that should be there in common, such as protections for the passenger (since you're effectively imprisoned) but stuff like background checks should suffice and I'm pretty sure that Uber and the other companies do this.
darrylb42 13y ago
Paris, where the meter starts when you call the cab. After the second time with 40+ Euros on the meter we stopped calling cabs and flagged one on the street. Third trip we figured out walking was faster.
- saraid216 13y ago
  > Third trip we figured out walking was faster. Next time, you might try renting a bicycle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A9lib' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A9lib'
mcguire 13y ago
"Why do the Paris cab drivers require such regulations?" Historical and ongoing[1] abuse. The usual reason for regulations. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_of_Mexico#Security_Recommendations_when_taking_taxis_in_Mexico http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_of_Mexico#Security_Rec...
- icebraining 13y ago
  That may indicate a need for regulations; I don't see how it validates such regulations, particularly the medallion system.
  - mcguire 13y ago
    You would think we would be swimming in discussions of the history of, say, the New York City medallion system. But the only thing I can find are links to a book that I may have to read, Graham Hodges’ Taxi! A social history of the New York City cab driver, and vague references to the Great Depression and strike violence. "The competition 'was merciless,' according to Hodges, and 'Many cabbies turned to petty crime to help make ends meet.' "There were strikes, and there were fare wars. "Ultimately, an alderman named Lew Haas decided to do something about it. "In 1937, he proposed a bill that would limit the number of taxis to 13,595, and make medallions automatically renewable, tradeable assets. It was signed that year by Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia."[1] "A 1934 strike turned violent, despite various promises of taxi drivers' associations to Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia that peace would prevail."[2] "Until 1935, the taxi industry in New York was comprised of unregulated companies fighting for dominance. This all changed during the Great Depression. Widespread poverty prompted many New Yorkers to opt for less-expensive forms of transportation, decreasing the demand for taxis. This put many companies out of business and caused many cabdrivers to lose their jobs. The situation was made worse by the tactics of 'wildcat' (unlicensed) taxis who used what some considered to be 'underhanded tactics,' such as drastically lowering fares, to get more business."[3] [1] http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/politics/2013/01/7399052/curse-new-york-city-taxi-medallion?page=all http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/politics/2013/01/73990... [2] http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=14414 http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=14414 [3] http://www.nyc.gov/html/media/totweb/taxioftomorrow_history_regulationandprosperity.html http://www.nyc.gov/html/media/totweb/taxioftomorrow_history_...

stereo 13y ago

The licenses are limited in number, and re-sold. They’re seen by taxi drivers as a kind of life insurance. Talk about abolishing them or issuing more and, you guessed it, they’ll strike.

dmix 13y ago
This is why regulation is more often bad than good. It always starts out with great intentions and often works well in the beginning, then crumbles over time either do to it's own bureaucracy, it's selective enforcement, or it's crippling effect on technology or markets. In addition, it's always difficult to evolve the law with the times, or remove it entirely, than to create new ones. So we're left with an ever-growing legacy of non-productive policy.
- john_b 13y ago
  In general market regulations start out with good intentions, but the protection they afford specific groups eventually tends to seen as a sacred right by those groups. Especially after the first generation--those who could still remember a time without that regulation--have passed on. The type of regulations that can work well are those that benefit a large number of diverse groups (i.e. financial regulations preventing banks from doing stupid things with their customers' money) whose interests are so poorly correlated that they cannot effectively organize for a monopoly on some special privelege.

maerF0x0 13y ago

I cant speak directly for Paris, but in my home town, one reason we limit the number of taxi cabs is because we've decided (as a society regulating itself) that too many cabs is a social problem. It may sound funny, but imagine a case where there is a lineup of 200 cabs clogging the airport to get that one lucrative fare. Alternatively, outside of a office building to aim for CEOs. They take up a common good that is free (space and to some extent air quality) and therefore are a tragedy of the commons case.

grimtrigger 13y ago
simple solutions: a gasoline tax or car tax. These are problems with cars, not just taxis/ubers.
- JonFish85 13y ago
  I disagree--the problems mentioned were specifically cabs, not cars.
nknighthb 13y ago
Have you experienced "too many cabs"? How do you know the "social problems" aren't just imagined? How do you know they cannot be controlled in other ways? You imagine "200 cabs clogging the airport" -- have you seen how cabs work in places where they are plentiful? There's no point in having 200 at an airport at once. They don't take passengers at random, they line up and wait their turn. If there are a lot of cabs at an airport, the drivers will be better off going into the city and finding a fare there than waiting in a line of 200 cabs. If there is actually such demand that 200 would "clog" the airport at once, they're obviously solving a problem that isn't being solved by alternative means, such as cheaper and more efficient busses and trains. Why would drivers aim for CEOs? Cab fares are regulated, so that just leaves tips (something not even customary in many places). They'll get more in a couple hours driving around than waiting for the lottery in the form of an abnormally generous CEO.
- bunderbunder 13y ago
  This is a good point. In most cities, cabs do not go to the airport unless they have to. It just isn't a good use of their time - if you drive all the way out there with an empty cab, you've just sunk a whole lot of gas and time on a deadhead when you could have spent the same on picking up several fares downtown. And even when you have someone who wants a ride out to the airport, it's not necessarily something you want to do because then for a return fare you've got to go to the cab stand and take whoever you get wherever they want to go - which could be somewhere way out in the weeds so you still end up stuck with a dead head. That's the reason why in most cities there are actual laws on the books saying cab drivers aren't allowed to refuse to take you to the airport - without those laws, many of them would.

ig1 13y ago

Taxis are regulated in most countries, typically in exchange for a fee and following a set of regulation they'll get the exclusive right to pick up people on the street. The precise regulations vary but generally the type of things they include are: * Criminal background check * Level of city knowledge * State of car * Prohibited to refuse to pick someone up * Prohibited to refuse short journeys * Regulated pricing * Rules on detours

Sanddancer 13y ago
I'd argue that a system that tests on practical taxi driving, such as London's Knowledge would be a much more useful way of vetting taxi drivers than Paris' system of limiting it to whoever can pay a quarter million euros for a medallion.
- brohee 13y ago
  There is an additional, pretty hard to pass exam.
bertil 13y ago
I can certify that taxi drivers in Paris casually refuse more than half their rides, based on skin color alone — and openly confess that to anyone, no need to ask — and they have committed enough road infraction in any sitting to loose their driving license for good.
- brohee 13y ago
  Not my experience, but seriously, report them, it's obviously illegal.
  - bertil 13y ago
    I generally use taxis when I'm late for a plane, so the only thing I could do was call: - Police department say they see issues frequently, but clients are often foreigners, and unable to testify; - the head office, G7 (because they need to be named and shamed) reaction was that hiring and paying road criminals was not their concern. After making that phone call several times, I support long prison sentences for the executives of that company.

mattlutze 13y ago

Paris has an incredibly strong Taxi union, which has enjoyed it's monopoly for many decades. Uber cars not being unionized means they are taking money from this massive institution. I think, quite simply, it's cronyism. Also, the 15 minute wait is because the taxis-by-dispatch are inherently slower. Instead of trying to compete, the taxi union pushed hard on Paris and got them to pass the restriction. Generally, rather than innovating and trying to compete, the taxi companies in the union have taken the much simpler route of attempting to blockade the upstart.

caruber 13y ago
Taxi Unions have dog in the fight. They have paid hefty licensing fees to the govt and ask for rights in return. If uber pays 1M $ OR 500K Euros for every taxi license, uber will ask much more than what Taxi unions are asking for. The other way to solve the issue is let govt repay the money to taxi owners and allow everybody to compete on equal footing.
- sologoub 13y ago
  Do you have a source for the $1M taxi license claim? Don't see how this can provide any reasonable ROI… or is this for a large cab company? EDIT: a below comment posted that it's 230k Euros max in Paris...
  - caruber 13y ago
    Sorry i was not clear. 1 M price tag is for NYC medallion. This article quotes 250K Euros for taxi license in Paris: http://www.rudebaguette.com/2013/08/07/anatomy-of-the-paris-taxi-market-past-present-future/ http://www.rudebaguette.com/2013/08/07/anatomy-of-the-paris-...
julienchastang 13y ago
Agreed. The taxi situation in Paris has been a pain in the ass for a long time. Ever try to get a taxi to go to the train station or airport on a busy day? Sometimes you can't get one b/c of the artificially low number of taxis in Paris. Each successive government in France tries to do something about the taxi unions and fails. Uber will succeed hopefully. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324557804578371641523013604 http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142412788732455780...

stonemetal 13y ago

The problem with cabs is when they are circulating looking for work. They are causing congestion for no real benefit. Regulation caps how much useless congestion there is by capping the number of cabs on the road. Limo companies don't cause this unneeded congestion because they only go out when they have a job to do, so there is no need to regulate the number of limos on the street. Whether or not Uber should be regulated depends on what their drivers do with their down time. Do they trawl the streets or do they get off of them? It seems like they should get off the road since they can't really pick people up without a reservation. However they may trawl good spots for pickups like near bars or something in which case they are causing unneeded traffic and should be regulated.

harshpotatoes 13y ago
That makes sense. So i guess from the perspective of the regulators the options are now either prevent the uber cabs from being flagged down from the street to remove the incentive to roam the street and keep the limo/cab markets separate and ensure the streets remain clearish. Or, remove the regulations, find some way to appease the old cabbies (refund the large license fee), and hope the lack of regulation does not cause huge traffic problems (maybe ticket loitering or cruising, as done in some small towns).
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
dnautics 13y ago
most limo services (don't know about uber) offer fixed rates (time or distance). Since Taxis pick you up and start running a taximeter to charge you, that's something that needs to be regulated to make sure that they don't stiff you. If a limo service shows you the route and gives you a quote on the cost, then there would be no need for that level of regulation as well. There are some regulations that should be there in common, such as protections for the passenger (since you're effectively imprisoned) but stuff like background checks should suffice and I'm pretty sure that Uber and the other companies do this.

darrylb42 13y ago

Paris, where the meter starts when you call the cab. After the second time with 40+ Euros on the meter we stopped calling cabs and flagged one on the street. Third trip we figured out walking was faster.

saraid216 13y ago
> Third trip we figured out walking was faster. Next time, you might try renting a bicycle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A9lib' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A9lib'

mcguire 13y ago

"Why do the Paris cab drivers require such regulations?" Historical and ongoing[1] abuse. The usual reason for regulations. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_of_Mexico#Security_Recommendations_when_taking_taxis_in_Mexico http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_of_Mexico#Security_Rec...

icebraining 13y ago
That may indicate a need for regulations; I don't see how it validates such regulations, particularly the medallion system.
- mcguire 13y ago
  You would think we would be swimming in discussions of the history of, say, the New York City medallion system. But the only thing I can find are links to a book that I may have to read, Graham Hodges’ Taxi! A social history of the New York City cab driver, and vague references to the Great Depression and strike violence. "The competition 'was merciless,' according to Hodges, and 'Many cabbies turned to petty crime to help make ends meet.' "There were strikes, and there were fare wars. "Ultimately, an alderman named Lew Haas decided to do something about it. "In 1937, he proposed a bill that would limit the number of taxis to 13,595, and make medallions automatically renewable, tradeable assets. It was signed that year by Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia."[1] "A 1934 strike turned violent, despite various promises of taxi drivers' associations to Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia that peace would prevail."[2] "Until 1935, the taxi industry in New York was comprised of unregulated companies fighting for dominance. This all changed during the Great Depression. Widespread poverty prompted many New Yorkers to opt for less-expensive forms of transportation, decreasing the demand for taxis. This put many companies out of business and caused many cabdrivers to lose their jobs. The situation was made worse by the tactics of 'wildcat' (unlicensed) taxis who used what some considered to be 'underhanded tactics,' such as drastically lowering fares, to get more business."[3] [1] http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/politics/2013/01/7399052/curse-new-york-city-taxi-medallion?page=all http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/politics/2013/01/73990... [2] http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=14414 http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=14414 [3] http://www.nyc.gov/html/media/totweb/taxioftomorrow_history_regulationandprosperity.html http://www.nyc.gov/html/media/totweb/taxioftomorrow_history_...