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Cryptocat for iPhone and Android – Call for Review
- poolpool 13y agoMan they are a glutton for punishment.
- magikarp 13y agoI like to think that the Cryptocat team and myself have matured beyond the point where we consider security disclosures to be punishment, but rather something to be expected when handling a project that wields experimental technology. We're trying to be adults by adopting principles of full disclosure, mitigation, transparency, public involvement, and making sure our process is tweaked to prevent the repetition of past mistakes.
- fosap 13y agoAnd why the hell should i use a app that is written by know poeple that prooven they have no clue about crypto? Why shouldn't i use one of the many apps that support OTR?
- magikarp 13y agoCryptocat's private chat uses OTR. Our group chat function uses an open and studied multiparty protocol. Generally, our security bugs have been implementation errors much more than protocol design errors. Surely, the best we can do as a community project is open up our code for more volunteers and experts to help and take a look. :-)
- fosap 13y agoGreat to hear that you switched to older and audited code. Could you explain what relationship this app has to the javascript version?
- magikarp 13y agoThere are currently three Cryptocat clients: * Cryptocat: The original client. It's a signed browser extension that you download and install in your browser. It offers OTR implemented in JavaScript in a friendly chat interface. We take every precaution to make JavaScript more secure, such as using a signed browser extension to prevent code delivery MITM, using native cryptographically secure random number generation, and so on. More info on our JavaScript approach at my personal blog: http://log.nadim.cc/?p=33 http://log.nadim.cc/?p=33 * Cryptocat for iPhone: No JavaScript here! This is an app written in Cocoa Touch/Objective-C that implements OTR and our multiparty group chat protocol. It's really quite a simple app compared to what we had to do to put encrypted chat in the browser. It's new and needs review! Find bugs! Help a cool open source project! We'll send you rewards! * Cryptocat for Android: No JavaScript here! This is an app written in Java that implements OTR and our multiparty group chat protocol. It's really quite a simple app compared to what we had to do to put encrypted chat in the browser. It's new and needs review! Find bugs! Help a cool open source project! We'll send you rewards! All three clients are made to be 100% inter-operable.
- aortega 13y agoIt's fine that you have faith in your product but I will believe what you say when other people outside the project confirm it, otherwise is just marketing. I do not use gnupg because the creators say it's nice, I use it because everybody including their competitors says it's OK.
- mahyarm 13y agoPlease tell me something that even approaches these conditions: 1. Implements OTR / Isn't a roll your own flawed cryptosystem like telegram? 2. Can be used by non technical users 3. Can be used on linux, osx, windows, ios and android? 4. Does not crash all the time (ios's chatsecure) 5. Is open source? So far, unable to find it. It's easy to be a critic. Cryptocat and textsecure are the only two contenders, and right now cryptocat is the closest one to meet all of those conditions.
- arcameron 13y agohttps://chat.echoplex.us https://chat.echoplex.us I'm the primary developer of this. I feel like it fulfills a lot of the points that you argue, please feel free to take a look :)
- mahyarm 13y agoDoesn't have mobile integration and push notifications. I can't use it as a chat client on my iOS or Android device. There are many mature OTR chat clients for the desktop. Cool product although.
- bqe 13y agoGlad that they're taking security seriously. It's a sharp difference from how they used to do things[1]. However, I'd still like to see either an explicit bug bounty (there's one implied here) or a paid audit. [1]: http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2013/03/here-come-encryption-apps.html http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2013/03/here-come-en...
- magikarp 13y agoFrom my perspective, we've been taking security seriously a year+. Our first commissioned audit was in November 2012, and we've had a bug bounty since then as well: https://crypto.cat/bughunt/ https://crypto.cat/bughunt/ This isn't, of course, to say that there haven't been vulnerabilities. But I have to stand behind our mitigation and disclosure policy as being very highly responsible and transparent. So far, we've had three paid audits, with two more lined up, and regularly reward community bug-finders. We're planning more competitions for Cryptocat Mobile in March and April, with prizes such as iPhones and Nexus Phones. :-)
- lemonlimebubble 13y agoHi, I am working on a security-focussed startup. We have a rough cut of our initial product offering due in the next month and are trying to get initial trial users and customers on board to help us demonstrate interest. How do you manage to afford to finance the audits and bug bounties? We have found that some potential customers want to see us get security audited before trusting our solution, but from what we can tell this is a multi-hundred thousand dollar cost and requires us to freeze development while it takes place. We currently have zero day-to-day budget and runway for 6 months. How have you afforded it?
- magikarp 13y ago> How do you manage to afford to finance the audits and bug bounties? Public donations from our website and funding from public institutions and NGOs. Currently, our audits are funded by the Open Technology Fund: https://www.opentechfund.org https://www.opentechfund.org Generally, our funding tends to be very limited though, so sometimes we have to ask someone to do an audit for cheaper than they usually would, seeing as we're an open source project with no source of revenue. EDIT: Forgot to mention, we have no funding for bug bounties. I pay all bug bounties out of my own pocket. I don't mind, I feel the money is very well-spent. Good luck with your startup!
- utnick 13y agocan you give some screenshots or videos of the fingerprint showing mechanism? My biggest concern with cryptocat is that this info is kind of hidden and not bubbled up to the user. In the web version, the way its handled makes it possible for the server operator to replace who you are talking to mid-conversation without warning unless you click a fingerprint button before and after every message you send which nobody is going to do I know there is an issue for this on the web version ( https://github.com/cryptocat/cryptocat/issues/463 https://github.com/cryptocat/cryptocat/issues/463 ), just wondering if the mobile ones take a different approach.
- jug6ernaut 13y agoI will say from skimming over the source tree the amount of code in CryptoCat(android) is surprisingly light. This is very refreshing compared to other chat applications which are unnecessarily huge. Will be definitely going over this later.
- magikarp 13y agoCryptocat for Android is particularly unfinished so far. I would be surprised if you don't find bugs inside. Cryptocat for iPhone is currently a lot more mature, but similarly still needs peer review. We have a commissioned audit for both apps, but it won't be starting for another two weeks. Thanks SO MUCH for your interest. We rely on security enthusiasts for comments and advice.
- iagooar 13y agoYou know that using a .cat domain for something not related to Catalan culture or language is not allowed by the conditions established by ICANN and Fundació puntCAT? You have only translated the main page (with Google Translator...) to make it look like you have some Catalan content there. That's naughty. "In order to be granted a .cat domain, one needs to belong to the Catalan linguistic and cultural community on the Internet. A person, organization or company is considered to belong if they either:[4] 1. already have content in Catalan published online. 2. have access to a special code (sometimes called ENS), issued during special promotions or by agreements with certain institutions. 3. develop activities (in any language) to promote the Catalan culture and language. 4. are endorsed by 3 people or 1 institution already using a .cat domain name." Read more about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.cat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.cat
- magikarp 13y agoCryptocat's website and the Cryptocat app itself are both fully translated into Catalan, and we maintain a very communicative and open relationship with PuntCAT.
- iagooar 13y agoThe only page I have found in Catalan so far is the homepage, and it is translated 50% by Google and 50% by someone who probably did not even finish high school. I'm happy that the app is translated into Catalan. I hope the translation is better than the one on the website. Just wanted to make sure you know what this domain is actually used for.
- pablobaz 13y agoEasy to be snarky about this. But I admire their persistence. In the face of the extensive criticism they could have just given up. Instead they have acknowledged making mistakes, didn't give up, learnt from the mistake and changed their subsequent behavior. This is admirable.
- utnick 13y agoAgree , I really believe they are commited to security and openness. They should be a model for a lot of security focused companies out there. Security is a process.
- DanBC 13y agoCompare them to underground dentists - Bob has no medical training, but has a dremel and practiced on a pig head. He offers to do a filling for his pal. He makes a bit of a botch of it, but he larns from his mistake and carries on. Dentistry is important so it's admirable that Bob ignores the criticism. Bob's first pal is currently fighting off a severe infection, but Bob uses that as a learning experience. Bob will get there one day!
- TallGuyShort 13y agoIf a growing portion of the dentistry industry was discovered to have been weakening people's teeth at the government's request, I'd start to buy Bob a beer a little more often.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- mr_spothawk 13y agoIt turns out Bob was actually receiving radio transmissions from the ADA through his fillings. He's a sleeper in the underground dentist community, waiting for the call to turn his xray machine on when the TSA releases its ruling on the need for back-scatter surveillance to prevent the next tooth-bomber from hijacking civilian aircraft. Be careful what you say around Bob.
- diminoten 13y agoSo there's a DC hackathon[0] taking place this weekend, and Cryptocat is on the list of projects to work on. I imagine the Android and iOS apps would be ripe targets for bug finding adventures, but are there any places specifically that could use the kind of scrutiny that such an event could provide? [0] - http://www.eventbrite.com/e/dc-internet-freedom-hackathon-tickets-9306081741 http://www.eventbrite.com/e/dc-internet-freedom-hackathon-ti...
- magikarp 13y agoYup! I'm leaving for D.C. tomorrow and will be at that hackathon. Please come and help!
- pikachu_is_cool 13y agoHow are you guys going to get Cryptocat on the iPhone app store? Apple rejects GPL-licensed apps.
- aaronharnly 13y agoIs that the case? I thought it was more that the GPL rejects distribution on the App Store.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- pikachu_is_cool 13y agoAre you seriously saying that it is the FSF's fault? It's Apple's fault. They didn't have to make the iPhone a closed platform.
- josephlord 13y agoIf they own the copyright they can also release it under the 'whatever terms are appropriate for the app store licence'.
- pikachu_is_cool 13y agoI thought the GPL automatically gives all rights to the code to the FSF.
- belorn 13y agoIs that a joke, or do/did you honestly think so? GPL is a copyright license, which people who receive it can use as permission when redistributing the copyrighted work. The GPL do not give FSF anything. Same is true for example that Massachusetts Institute of Technology do not get all the rights when some code is licensed under MIT license.
- sneak 13y agoIf your multiparty protocol is actually something you want scrutinized, why not follow the accepted model and make a c library reference implementation and release a research paper outlining the basis for your design decisions? "Hey guys, here's the code, file some bugs for software that is of no use for you to spend time auditing" is pointless. Adium has an incentive to read the libotr sources. Every user has a small incentive to read kernel sources. Nobody has any meaningful incentives to read the cryptocat homebrew multiparty cryptosystem except the few you've paid to do so. This is cargo cult peer review; it looks like you're doing it but it doesn't actually yield the intended results. PS: glad to see you switched to OTR for two party. You should have done that years ago, but at least you wised up in the end. Hopefully nobody got killed or tortured in the process.
- magikarp 13y agoIt's true that we don't have a research paper per se for the multiparty protocol, but we do have a specification document [1] as well as implementations in Objective-C, Java and JavaScript. The specification, as well as the implementations, have received both professional audits (from cryptographers) as well as community audits. The reason we don't have a research paper published is simply because we're working on one right now — a redesign of the multiparty protocol based on OTR. We have cryptographers on board from various Canadian universities and are organizing an internal forum to get them to collaborate on this. We expect publishable results by June 2014. Regarding OTR, we actually switched to that 16 months ago — it's not exactly like we recently wisened up. [1] https://github.com/cryptocat/cryptocat/wiki/Multiparty-Protocol-Specification https://github.com/cryptocat/cryptocat/wiki/Multiparty-Proto...
- sneak 13y ago> as well as implementations in Objective-C, Java and JavaScript. Factor the ObjC version out to plain C, and call into it from your Objective C implementation. Make the plain C version the canonical version. (Things like Emscripten may be useful here for your JS use-case.) This is how libotr does it, and for good reason. Then, others can use it, and perhaps you will get meaningful free auditing. What you're doing now probably won't attract that because unless your bug bounty is six-figures, nobody competent will spend any significant amount of time auditing it because they have no incentive to do so.