6 ms·

Right, because a whole country is TexaFlorida and all the inhabitants are Duck Dynasty Honey Boo Boo.

by derleth 13y ago

catmanjan 13y ago
Again, I still haven't heard any arguments _for_ a life in America other than "it isn't all bad" or "it isn't as bad as Hollywood makes it look".
- mikeash 13y ago
  How do you argue for that? Life here is largely fine, but it's tough to support that because "fine" encompasses everything. There isn't much you can do besides shoot down all the incorrect statements about how it's not fine. Most people here live decent lives, make decent money, live in decent dwellings, don't experience significant quantities of crime, etc. Yes, there are many problems with the USA at the moment. But that does not mean that life here is somehow terrible for everyone, or even most people.
- derleth 13y ago
  Robust free speech protections, ability to rough it in a country that's still in the first world, and the ability to enter industries that don't exist to the same extent elsewhere. We're also much less racist than Europe, for example: We haven't banned wearing traditional Muslim garb, for example, and we don't have the hatred of the Roma which is endemic to the European continent.
  - catmanjan 13y ago
    >ability to rough it in a country that's still in the first world Does rough it mean suffer? I don't know if that's a point in favor... >We're also much less racist than Europe That's like comparing apples and oranges or countries and continents
    - pyre 13y ago
      > Does rough it mean suffer? I don't know if that's a point in favor... I think it refers to enjoying the outdoors. E.g.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Crest_Trail http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Crest_Trail
    - karamazov 13y ago
      The entirety of the US is more comparable to Europe as a whole than to any individual European country.
      - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
        Indeed. There's an extreme inequality of quality of life and public services, and it shows up in statistics. For instance, taken individually, Massachusetts has a higher Human Development Index than the fabled social-democratic paradise of Norway.
    - lotharbot 13y ago
      > "Does rough it mean suffer?" With a few seconds on your favorite search engine, you could discover that "rough it" is an idiom commonly used to refer to camping in a nature-heavy setting (without electricity/plumbing.)
      - catmanjan 13y ago
        Haha, excuse me for not jumping to that conclusion straight away, I have never heard the ability to live in the bush being used as an argument for another country in a discussion about Australia! Also first link in Google: rough it - to live in a way that is simple and not very comfortable Don't pretend search engines deliver the same content to everyone
        lotharbot 13y ago
        > "excuse me for not jumping to that conclusion" I'm not suggesting you jump to conclusions. I'm suggesting you do basic research when you don't understand an expression. By the time you skim the first page of results, whether or not it's the same as my first page of results, you should have a clear idea what the idiom means. > "an argument for another country in a discussion about Australia!" The immediate discussion was about whether there were arguments for living in America, not whether there were arguments against living in Australia. The US has a lot of things going for it; whether or not some of those things also apply elsewhere isn't really relevant.
  - gradstudent 13y ago
    > we don't have the hatred of the Roma which is endemic to the European continent. s/Roma/Mexicans; s/European/American; Fixed.
    - derleth 13y ago
      I note you didn't respond to the fact it's illegal to dress as a Muslim in some places in Europe but it's legal everywhere in the USA.
      - gradstudent 13y ago
        To the best of my knowledge it is not "illegal to dress as a Muslim" anywhere in Europe. In France it is prohibited to cover one's face while in public. The argument for this law is not grounded in any religious objection, as I understand it, but rather in the fact that face coverings make identification difficult and do not fit in with the expected norms for social interaction in that country. France also has a ban on the display of religious symbols in public schools. The ban is applied wholesale and does not discriminate against any one particular group. This law, as I understand it, is motivated by a strong desire for secularism in the public education system.
        derleth 13y ago
        > The argument for this law is not grounded in any religious objection, as I understand it Wow. This is monumentally dishonest, especially given how the law came to be and how it's been applied. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/when-did-islamophobic-attacks-become-the-norm-for-the-french-media-8294053.html http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/when-did-islamop... > but rather in the fact that face coverings make identification difficult A poor reason to assault someone's culture and religion. Rather Big Brotherish, in fact. > and do not fit in with the expected norms for social interaction in that country. Back in the day, allowing blacks and whites into the same schools didn't fit in with the expected norms for social interaction in the USA. We got over it. > France also has a ban on the display of religious symbols in public schools. This I don't have a huge problem with, even though it seems a bit over-broad. Does it also prohibit people from wearing cross necklaces, for example? How about if someone had put ashes on their face for Ash Wednesday?
  - vacri 13y ago
    The functional difference between free speech in Australia and the United States isn't that strong. On the idealistic part of the spectrum, the US does win, but in terms of how it affects your life, they're pretty comparable. It is interesting to note that Australia is consistently rated superior to the US on the Press Freedom Index, and both are outscored by a passel of European countries. http://en.rsf.org/press-freedom-index-2013,1054.html http://en.rsf.org/press-freedom-index-2013,1054.html
    - derleth 13y ago
      OK, to begin with, Australia still bans things. This is something the USA grew out of decades ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Australia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Australia It's insane. Also, there are the defamation laws: https://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Censor/defamation.html https://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Censor/defamation.html > In theory, the objective of defamation laws is to balance protection of individual reputation with freedom of expression. In practice, defamation laws are frequently used as a means of chilling speech. A threat of (costly) defamation proceedings and damages, whether or not a plaintiff's claim is likely to be upheld by a court, is often used to silence criticism not only by a particular person or group but also as a threat to others. Basically, defamation laws in the USA are much more defendant-friendly compared to their equivalents in Commonwealth countries. Australia deserves much praise for apparently being much better in this regard compared to the UK, for example: Australian law recognizes truth to be an absolute defense, which is not generally the case in Commonwealth libel laws. Canada deserves special approbation for its insane hate speech laws: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Human_Rights_Commission_free_speech_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Human_Rights_Commissio... Which are similar to the insane laws against denying the Holocaust or even using certain images in parts of Europe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_%C2%A7_86a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_%C2%A7_86a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%80%93World_War_II_legality_of_Nazi_flags http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%80%93World_War_II_legal... There have been just as many substantial fascist parties in places with those laws as there are in places without them: Zero. They're an attack on free expression, a universal human right, and they're an absurd over-reaction, an example of terrified cowering at a few worthless fools. What's worse, they do nothing to solve any of the real problems modern Europe has with anti-Roma and anti-Muslim racism.
- bane 13y ago
  If you're an Australian, if you woke up tomorrow in an American city of an Australian one, you'd probably have a hard time telling them apart until you saw which side a car drove on or somebody spoke to you. On the flip side, Canada, which isn't the U.S. and has all of the benefits being claimed here about places that are not the U.S. is so virtually identical to the U.S. in most ways that I've watched entire seasons of TV shows and not known they were filmed in Canada with Canadian actors. After a night of bar hopping in Toronto, I once woke up in Canada and thought we had made it back over into the U.S. overnight. It took me a few hours and trying to pay at a diner with the wrong money to figure it out.

Right, because a whole country is TexaFlorida and all the inhabitants are Duck Dynasty Honey Boo Boo.

by derleth 13y ago

Right, because a whole country is TexaFlorida and all the inhabitants are Duck Dynasty Honey Boo Boo.

Again, I still haven't heard any arguments _for_ a life in America other than "it isn't all bad" or "it isn't as bad as Hollywood makes it look".

mikeash 13y ago
How do you argue for that? Life here is largely fine, but it's tough to support that because "fine" encompasses everything. There isn't much you can do besides shoot down all the incorrect statements about how it's not fine. Most people here live decent lives, make decent money, live in decent dwellings, don't experience significant quantities of crime, etc. Yes, there are many problems with the USA at the moment. But that does not mean that life here is somehow terrible for everyone, or even most people.
derleth 13y ago
Robust free speech protections, ability to rough it in a country that's still in the first world, and the ability to enter industries that don't exist to the same extent elsewhere. We're also much less racist than Europe, for example: We haven't banned wearing traditional Muslim garb, for example, and we don't have the hatred of the Roma which is endemic to the European continent.
- catmanjan 13y ago
  >ability to rough it in a country that's still in the first world Does rough it mean suffer? I don't know if that's a point in favor... >We're also much less racist than Europe That's like comparing apples and oranges or countries and continents
  - pyre 13y ago
    > Does rough it mean suffer? I don't know if that's a point in favor... I think it refers to enjoying the outdoors. E.g.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Crest_Trail http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Crest_Trail
  - karamazov 13y ago
    The entirety of the US is more comparable to Europe as a whole than to any individual European country.
    - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
      Indeed. There's an extreme inequality of quality of life and public services, and it shows up in statistics. For instance, taken individually, Massachusetts has a higher Human Development Index than the fabled social-democratic paradise of Norway.
  - lotharbot 13y ago
    > "Does rough it mean suffer?" With a few seconds on your favorite search engine, you could discover that "rough it" is an idiom commonly used to refer to camping in a nature-heavy setting (without electricity/plumbing.)
    - catmanjan 13y ago
      Haha, excuse me for not jumping to that conclusion straight away, I have never heard the ability to live in the bush being used as an argument for another country in a discussion about Australia! Also first link in Google: rough it - to live in a way that is simple and not very comfortable Don't pretend search engines deliver the same content to everyone
      - lotharbot 13y ago
        > "excuse me for not jumping to that conclusion" I'm not suggesting you jump to conclusions. I'm suggesting you do basic research when you don't understand an expression. By the time you skim the first page of results, whether or not it's the same as my first page of results, you should have a clear idea what the idiom means. > "an argument for another country in a discussion about Australia!" The immediate discussion was about whether there were arguments for living in America, not whether there were arguments against living in Australia. The US has a lot of things going for it; whether or not some of those things also apply elsewhere isn't really relevant.
- gradstudent 13y ago
  > we don't have the hatred of the Roma which is endemic to the European continent. s/Roma/Mexicans; s/European/American; Fixed.
  - derleth 13y ago
    I note you didn't respond to the fact it's illegal to dress as a Muslim in some places in Europe but it's legal everywhere in the USA.
    - gradstudent 13y ago
      To the best of my knowledge it is not "illegal to dress as a Muslim" anywhere in Europe. In France it is prohibited to cover one's face while in public. The argument for this law is not grounded in any religious objection, as I understand it, but rather in the fact that face coverings make identification difficult and do not fit in with the expected norms for social interaction in that country. France also has a ban on the display of religious symbols in public schools. The ban is applied wholesale and does not discriminate against any one particular group. This law, as I understand it, is motivated by a strong desire for secularism in the public education system.
      - derleth 13y ago
        > The argument for this law is not grounded in any religious objection, as I understand it Wow. This is monumentally dishonest, especially given how the law came to be and how it's been applied. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/when-did-islamophobic-attacks-become-the-norm-for-the-french-media-8294053.html http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/when-did-islamop... > but rather in the fact that face coverings make identification difficult A poor reason to assault someone's culture and religion. Rather Big Brotherish, in fact. > and do not fit in with the expected norms for social interaction in that country. Back in the day, allowing blacks and whites into the same schools didn't fit in with the expected norms for social interaction in the USA. We got over it. > France also has a ban on the display of religious symbols in public schools. This I don't have a huge problem with, even though it seems a bit over-broad. Does it also prohibit people from wearing cross necklaces, for example? How about if someone had put ashes on their face for Ash Wednesday?
- vacri 13y ago
  The functional difference between free speech in Australia and the United States isn't that strong. On the idealistic part of the spectrum, the US does win, but in terms of how it affects your life, they're pretty comparable. It is interesting to note that Australia is consistently rated superior to the US on the Press Freedom Index, and both are outscored by a passel of European countries. http://en.rsf.org/press-freedom-index-2013,1054.html http://en.rsf.org/press-freedom-index-2013,1054.html
  - derleth 13y ago
    OK, to begin with, Australia still bans things. This is something the USA grew out of decades ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Australia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Australia It's insane. Also, there are the defamation laws: https://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Censor/defamation.html https://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Censor/defamation.html > In theory, the objective of defamation laws is to balance protection of individual reputation with freedom of expression. In practice, defamation laws are frequently used as a means of chilling speech. A threat of (costly) defamation proceedings and damages, whether or not a plaintiff's claim is likely to be upheld by a court, is often used to silence criticism not only by a particular person or group but also as a threat to others. Basically, defamation laws in the USA are much more defendant-friendly compared to their equivalents in Commonwealth countries. Australia deserves much praise for apparently being much better in this regard compared to the UK, for example: Australian law recognizes truth to be an absolute defense, which is not generally the case in Commonwealth libel laws. Canada deserves special approbation for its insane hate speech laws: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Human_Rights_Commission_free_speech_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Human_Rights_Commissio... Which are similar to the insane laws against denying the Holocaust or even using certain images in parts of Europe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_%C2%A7_86a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_%C2%A7_86a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%80%93World_War_II_legality_of_Nazi_flags http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%E2%80%93World_War_II_legal... There have been just as many substantial fascist parties in places with those laws as there are in places without them: Zero. They're an attack on free expression, a universal human right, and they're an absurd over-reaction, an example of terrified cowering at a few worthless fools. What's worse, they do nothing to solve any of the real problems modern Europe has with anti-Roma and anti-Muslim racism.
bane 13y ago
If you're an Australian, if you woke up tomorrow in an American city of an Australian one, you'd probably have a hard time telling them apart until you saw which side a car drove on or somebody spoke to you. On the flip side, Canada, which isn't the U.S. and has all of the benefits being claimed here about places that are not the U.S. is so virtually identical to the U.S. in most ways that I've watched entire seasons of TV shows and not known they were filmed in Canada with Canadian actors. After a night of bar hopping in Toronto, I once woke up in Canada and thought we had made it back over into the U.S. overnight. It took me a few hours and trying to pay at a diner with the wrong money to figure it out.