5 ms·

Federating Do-It-Yourself ISPs from around the world

112 points by taziden 13y ago

Xdes 13y ago
I've always wondered what it would take to setup an ISP. I think customers would be the major pain point (especially in america when competing with Comcast or AT&T).
- brabram 13y ago
  A good part of DIY ISP don't have customers, they have users, it's a major difference, they are made by the people for the people. It really depends on the country where you want to do that, but, generally, it's hard and expensive to setup a traditional (think *DSL, FTTH) ISP.
themodelplumber 13y ago
It seems like the "from around the world" part isn't really up and running yet. I expected to see some of my local SF Bay Area ISPs on the map, but it's only showing some European ISPs right now. Further I wondered what the qualifications for DIY might be--individual-level shared networks or the typical small business thing? Next I wondered why it was so important to know about FDN attending some conference, vs. spending more time explaining in basic terms what they do and what they plan to do. Anyway, seems like a neat idea.
- _delirium 13y ago
  Their main page (ffdn.org) has this description: Members of the FDN Federation are Non-Profit Internet Service Providers sharing common values: volunteer-based, solidarity-driven, democratic and non-profit working; defense and promotion of Net neutrality.
farinasa 13y ago
Have always been curious about setting up an ISP. Especially so recently. I have been unsuccessful finding much information, though I haven't tried as hard as I probably could. Anyone have any good links?
- AlterSid 13y ago
  That is definitely one of the reason for http://www.diyisp.org http://www.diyisp.org to be setup right now. The idea would be to have a sort of http://hackerspaces.org http://hackerspaces.org (one stop website for hackerspaces around the world) to facilitate discovery and spreading of useful information.
- mgbmtl 13y ago
  From what I understand so far, the model they encourage is: - register a legal entity (coop, non-proft, corp, whatever) - register with IANA to get an ipv4 and ipv6 block - find an ISP who can do the BGP announcements for you (DSL resellers usually support it, even if for a residential connection) - use something like Quagga for routing, no need for big expensive routers - connect with whatever premises you want your DYI-ISP to cover: ex: specific building, such as a student dorm, specific residential district with a mesh wifi, cat5 flying all over the place, install your own fiber (it's not that complicated!), etc. Browsing the FFDN database, a lot of their members are small orgs with 50-100 users. With time, if you encourage a community legal model (coop or non-profit), people will develop more expertise and step up to manage and expand your network. PS: I'm part of a Montreal mesh community called "Réseau libre" (http://www.reseaulibre.ca http://www.reseaulibre.ca). We don't provide Internet, but we build the underlying infrastructure. It's a lot of fun and a great way to learn crazy networking stuff on a shoe-string budget.
  - dingaling 13y ago
    > register with IANA to get an ipv4 and ipv6 block Actually one has to register as a Local Internet Registry with the local monopoly RIR, such as ARIN or RIPE. Only they can request blocks from IANA, which they then allocate to LIRs in exchange for non-trivial membership fees. Fees in the order of 3,000EUR to join and not much less on a recurring annual basis: http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/member-support/become-a-member/membership-fees http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/member-support/become-a-mem... Unfortunately since the ITU proposal for a non-geographic RIR faded some years ago there is no competition in this space, as the existing RIRs refuse to service cross-geography requests.
kordless 13y ago
Could Namecoin be used for the database?
- taziden 13y ago
  We were thinking about using the spare cpu cycles of our wireless antennas to dig dogecoins, a PoC may come soon.
Udo 13y ago
At first, I thought this was encouraging. But then I checked out the 3 "providers" listed for my country (Germany). One is a club maintaining connectivity for a specific student housing project, one offers only dialup/ISDN, and finally only one offers actual ADSL connectivity. I'm sure it's the same in other countries. While it's interesting as a concept, I don't really get the feeling there is much to see here. It's also not clear to me how these very few access providers would actually federate without real backbone connectivity.
- AlterSid 13y ago
  In Belgium, we are in the process of setting up an associative ISP, the road is long, but we have already started "formallly" to investigate technical solutions for vdsl lines, radio/wifi links; procurement of server, uplink, datacenter.. We have just passed a milestone which was to set up the legal entity supporting our diy isp. You are right to point out that there is still a lot of work to be done, but this is a step in the right direction imho. The idea behind this federation at this point is more to advertise the status of the various projects, and connect people together to share expertise (legal and hands-on).
  - Udo 13y ago
    > but this is a step in the right direction imho. It absolutely is, yes. What you're doing is admirable. > The idea behind this federation at this point is more to advertise the status of the various projects Ah, alright then. My first association was there'd by an effort to extricate yourself from the all-pervading surveillance, censoring, and traffic-shaping planned or already taking place. Of course, setting up an organization for knowledge sharing is also a worthy cause.
    - AlterSid 13y ago
      I sure hope this happens at the federation level too and becomes intrinsically tied to it. But what I am sure of, is that these aspects are some of the main drivers for people I had the pleasure to meet irl, and who are behind these initiatives.
RMacy 13y ago
Can you do this sort of thing in the US? Are the legal/political barriers too high?
- taziden 13y ago
  Hi, there is already people doing things like that in the US, like the Free Network Fundation : https://www.thefnf.org/ https://www.thefnf.org/ They're pretty awesome. Julien
- wtracy 13y ago
  If you need to run any cables/fiber over any property that you don't own, then yeah. If you just want to set up a DSL reseller account, knock yourself out.

112 points by taziden 13y ago

Xdes 13y ago

I've always wondered what it would take to setup an ISP. I think customers would be the major pain point (especially in america when competing with Comcast or AT&T).

brabram 13y ago
A good part of DIY ISP don't have customers, they have users, it's a major difference, they are made by the people for the people. It really depends on the country where you want to do that, but, generally, it's hard and expensive to setup a traditional (think *DSL, FTTH) ISP.

themodelplumber 13y ago

It seems like the "from around the world" part isn't really up and running yet. I expected to see some of my local SF Bay Area ISPs on the map, but it's only showing some European ISPs right now. Further I wondered what the qualifications for DIY might be--individual-level shared networks or the typical small business thing? Next I wondered why it was so important to know about FDN attending some conference, vs. spending more time explaining in basic terms what they do and what they plan to do. Anyway, seems like a neat idea.

_delirium 13y ago
Their main page (ffdn.org) has this description: Members of the FDN Federation are Non-Profit Internet Service Providers sharing common values: volunteer-based, solidarity-driven, democratic and non-profit working; defense and promotion of Net neutrality.

farinasa 13y ago

Have always been curious about setting up an ISP. Especially so recently. I have been unsuccessful finding much information, though I haven't tried as hard as I probably could. Anyone have any good links?

AlterSid 13y ago
That is definitely one of the reason for http://www.diyisp.org http://www.diyisp.org to be setup right now. The idea would be to have a sort of http://hackerspaces.org http://hackerspaces.org (one stop website for hackerspaces around the world) to facilitate discovery and spreading of useful information.
mgbmtl 13y ago
From what I understand so far, the model they encourage is: - register a legal entity (coop, non-proft, corp, whatever) - register with IANA to get an ipv4 and ipv6 block - find an ISP who can do the BGP announcements for you (DSL resellers usually support it, even if for a residential connection) - use something like Quagga for routing, no need for big expensive routers - connect with whatever premises you want your DYI-ISP to cover: ex: specific building, such as a student dorm, specific residential district with a mesh wifi, cat5 flying all over the place, install your own fiber (it's not that complicated!), etc. Browsing the FFDN database, a lot of their members are small orgs with 50-100 users. With time, if you encourage a community legal model (coop or non-profit), people will develop more expertise and step up to manage and expand your network. PS: I'm part of a Montreal mesh community called "Réseau libre" (http://www.reseaulibre.ca http://www.reseaulibre.ca). We don't provide Internet, but we build the underlying infrastructure. It's a lot of fun and a great way to learn crazy networking stuff on a shoe-string budget.
- dingaling 13y ago
  > register with IANA to get an ipv4 and ipv6 block Actually one has to register as a Local Internet Registry with the local monopoly RIR, such as ARIN or RIPE. Only they can request blocks from IANA, which they then allocate to LIRs in exchange for non-trivial membership fees. Fees in the order of 3,000EUR to join and not much less on a recurring annual basis: http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/member-support/become-a-member/membership-fees http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/member-support/become-a-mem... Unfortunately since the ITU proposal for a non-geographic RIR faded some years ago there is no competition in this space, as the existing RIRs refuse to service cross-geography requests.

kordless 13y ago

Could Namecoin be used for the database?

taziden 13y ago
We were thinking about using the spare cpu cycles of our wireless antennas to dig dogecoins, a PoC may come soon.

Udo 13y ago

At first, I thought this was encouraging. But then I checked out the 3 "providers" listed for my country (Germany). One is a club maintaining connectivity for a specific student housing project, one offers only dialup/ISDN, and finally only one offers actual ADSL connectivity. I'm sure it's the same in other countries. While it's interesting as a concept, I don't really get the feeling there is much to see here. It's also not clear to me how these very few access providers would actually federate without real backbone connectivity.

AlterSid 13y ago
In Belgium, we are in the process of setting up an associative ISP, the road is long, but we have already started "formallly" to investigate technical solutions for vdsl lines, radio/wifi links; procurement of server, uplink, datacenter.. We have just passed a milestone which was to set up the legal entity supporting our diy isp. You are right to point out that there is still a lot of work to be done, but this is a step in the right direction imho. The idea behind this federation at this point is more to advertise the status of the various projects, and connect people together to share expertise (legal and hands-on).
- Udo 13y ago
  > but this is a step in the right direction imho. It absolutely is, yes. What you're doing is admirable. > The idea behind this federation at this point is more to advertise the status of the various projects Ah, alright then. My first association was there'd by an effort to extricate yourself from the all-pervading surveillance, censoring, and traffic-shaping planned or already taking place. Of course, setting up an organization for knowledge sharing is also a worthy cause.
  - AlterSid 13y ago
    I sure hope this happens at the federation level too and becomes intrinsically tied to it. But what I am sure of, is that these aspects are some of the main drivers for people I had the pleasure to meet irl, and who are behind these initiatives.

RMacy 13y ago

Can you do this sort of thing in the US? Are the legal/political barriers too high?

taziden 13y ago
Hi, there is already people doing things like that in the US, like the Free Network Fundation : https://www.thefnf.org/ https://www.thefnf.org/ They're pretty awesome. Julien
wtracy 13y ago
If you need to run any cables/fiber over any property that you don't own, then yeah. If you just want to set up a DSL reseller account, knock yourself out.