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Oh my. Project much? Your attempt to rephrase his question to try to suit a silly ideology has nothing to do with "science", is merely your own appeal to emoti

by logjam 13y ago

Oh my. Project much? Your attempt to rephrase his question to try to suit a silly ideology has nothing to do with "science", is merely your own appeal to emotion, and isn't doing a thing to advance the discussion, moldburg. Now, do you have anything at all cogent to say about the obvious cultural and economic forces that create differences?

newnewnew 13y ago
It is incredibly difficult to untangle the effects of culture from those of biology, especially when dealing with the measured psychological differences between men and women. But when the effects are purely biological, as in this article, a cultural explanation is extremely un-parsimonious. The burden is on the proposer if he wants me to believe that the age of brain structure maturation is determined by which toys a child plays with.
- logjam 13y ago
  "...incredibly difficult to untangle the effects of culture from those of biology..." followed a few sentences later immediately by dismissal of consideration that "the age of brain structure maturation is determined by which toys a child plays with". Sigh. Honest question: do you even read what you fucking write?
  - yetanotherphd 13y ago
    change it to "incredibly difficult in general" in the first sentence to get at the poster's real meaning. And the attitude of your post is completely out of line for HN. I'm getting really sick of people with the attitude of "I'm right so I can verbally abuse people who are wrong". You should be ashamed of yourself for writing like that.
apricot7 13y ago
Now, do you have anything at all cogent to say about the obvious cultural and economic forces that create differences? Let's think about this. We know there are differences in brain chemistry between males and females, and those difference surge around puberty when sex hormones are flooding the system (rather than appearing gradually over time as a result of playing with different toys). That said, the fact that males and females have different brains doesn't preclude other culture differences. But why are these differences so similar across nearly every culture? A close relative of ours might explain this: Monkeys! Male monkeys prefer playing with traditional male toys, like trucks and balls, while female monkeys prefer playing with traditional female toys, like dolls. Predisposition to prefer certain types of stimulus is quite likely hardcoded in every one of us. The study was conducted on two different species of monkey: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys.html#.UsR3vGRDuwE http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-pre...
- quinnchr 13y ago
  From the study: "Male monkeys, like boys, showed consistent and strong preferences for wheeled toys, while female monkeys, like girls, showed greater variability in preferences." It takes pretty huge step to get from there to suggesting that human girls are genetically predisposed to liking barbies and kitchen toys. Those differences aren't so similar across nearly every culture. Gender differences vary widely by culture. Stuff like gender differences in IQ is wholly inconsistent across different racial groups. Nearly every metric related to gender differences varies substantially across different cultures. For instance in some countries it's women who test better in math.
  - apricot7 13y ago
    Of course. The full quote from the study: ----- Sex differences in juvenile activities, such as rough and tumble play, peer preferences, and infant interest, share similarities in humans and monkeys. Thus if activity preferences shape toy preferences, male and female monkeys may show toy preferences similar to those seen in boys and girls. We compared the interactions of 34 rhesus monkeys, living within a 135 monkey troop, with human wheeled toys and plush toys. Male monkeys, like boys, showed consistent and strong preferences for wheeled toys, while female monkeys, like girls, showed greater variability in preferences. Thus, the magnitude of preference for wheeled over plush toys differed significantly between males and females. The similarities to human findings demonstrate that such preferences can develop without explicit gendered socialization. ----- Male monkeys preferred roughhousing and toys that developed their spatial intelligence. Compared to boys, female monkeys preferred dolls that developed other forms of intelligence. Gender differences vary widely by culture. Stuff like gender differences in IQ is wholly inconsistent across different racial groups. Interesting. I can't really find anything on this, and Wikipedia doesn't have anything either: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_human_psychology#IQ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_human_psycho... Are you referring to a study about a village where women were able to solve a puzzle faster than men? For instance in some countries it's women who test better in math. This would be shocking if it weren't true. I'm curious to here what countries those are, because I suspect the countries that women test better in math will be the same countries that spend a disproportionate amount of time and money trying to improve women's math scores. A possibly relevant example: Men and boys tend to have better spacial intelligence than women and girls. But as an Israeli (I think) study showed us, spending extra time instructing students how to pass a specific type of spatial intelligence test resulted in everyone doing well on those tests, not just the boys.

by logjam 13y ago

newnewnew 13y ago

It is incredibly difficult to untangle the effects of culture from those of biology, especially when dealing with the measured psychological differences between men and women. But when the effects are purely biological, as in this article, a cultural explanation is extremely un-parsimonious. The burden is on the proposer if he wants me to believe that the age of brain structure maturation is determined by which toys a child plays with.

logjam 13y ago
"...incredibly difficult to untangle the effects of culture from those of biology..." followed a few sentences later immediately by dismissal of consideration that "the age of brain structure maturation is determined by which toys a child plays with". Sigh. Honest question: do you even read what you fucking write?
- yetanotherphd 13y ago
  change it to "incredibly difficult in general" in the first sentence to get at the poster's real meaning. And the attitude of your post is completely out of line for HN. I'm getting really sick of people with the attitude of "I'm right so I can verbally abuse people who are wrong". You should be ashamed of yourself for writing like that.

apricot7 13y ago

Now, do you have anything at all cogent to say about the obvious cultural and economic forces that create differences? Let's think about this. We know there are differences in brain chemistry between males and females, and those difference surge around puberty when sex hormones are flooding the system (rather than appearing gradually over time as a result of playing with different toys). That said, the fact that males and females have different brains doesn't preclude other culture differences. But why are these differences so similar across nearly every culture? A close relative of ours might explain this: Monkeys! Male monkeys prefer playing with traditional male toys, like trucks and balls, while female monkeys prefer playing with traditional female toys, like dolls. Predisposition to prefer certain types of stimulus is quite likely hardcoded in every one of us. The study was conducted on two different species of monkey: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys.html#.UsR3vGRDuwE http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-pre...

quinnchr 13y ago
From the study: "Male monkeys, like boys, showed consistent and strong preferences for wheeled toys, while female monkeys, like girls, showed greater variability in preferences." It takes pretty huge step to get from there to suggesting that human girls are genetically predisposed to liking barbies and kitchen toys. Those differences aren't so similar across nearly every culture. Gender differences vary widely by culture. Stuff like gender differences in IQ is wholly inconsistent across different racial groups. Nearly every metric related to gender differences varies substantially across different cultures. For instance in some countries it's women who test better in math.
- apricot7 13y ago
  Of course. The full quote from the study: ----- Sex differences in juvenile activities, such as rough and tumble play, peer preferences, and infant interest, share similarities in humans and monkeys. Thus if activity preferences shape toy preferences, male and female monkeys may show toy preferences similar to those seen in boys and girls. We compared the interactions of 34 rhesus monkeys, living within a 135 monkey troop, with human wheeled toys and plush toys. Male monkeys, like boys, showed consistent and strong preferences for wheeled toys, while female monkeys, like girls, showed greater variability in preferences. Thus, the magnitude of preference for wheeled over plush toys differed significantly between males and females. The similarities to human findings demonstrate that such preferences can develop without explicit gendered socialization. ----- Male monkeys preferred roughhousing and toys that developed their spatial intelligence. Compared to boys, female monkeys preferred dolls that developed other forms of intelligence. Gender differences vary widely by culture. Stuff like gender differences in IQ is wholly inconsistent across different racial groups. Interesting. I can't really find anything on this, and Wikipedia doesn't have anything either: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_human_psychology#IQ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_human_psycho... Are you referring to a study about a village where women were able to solve a puzzle faster than men? For instance in some countries it's women who test better in math. This would be shocking if it weren't true. I'm curious to here what countries those are, because I suspect the countries that women test better in math will be the same countries that spend a disproportionate amount of time and money trying to improve women's math scores. A possibly relevant example: Men and boys tend to have better spacial intelligence than women and girls. But as an Israeli (I think) study showed us, spending extra time instructing students how to pass a specific type of spatial intelligence test resulted in everyone doing well on those tests, not just the boys.