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Why is adding more women to the tech industry automatically assumed a laudable goal to throw resources behind? I'm Middle-Eastern (probably a smaller minority

Why is adding more women to the tech industry automatically assumed a laudable goal to throw resources behind? I'm Middle-Eastern (probably a smaller minority in the North-American tech scene compared to women), and while I (like most people) would certainly like to be surrounded by more of my brethren, it's not something I'd be comfortable spending resources on because the return on investment is so nebulous; diversity of views isn't automatically beneficial as is commonly assumed (an extreme example: you wouldn't expect a conservative big-corporation suit-wearing type to benefit a two-founder startup team). It also seems a bit arrogant to tell people 'you should stop pursuing X and learn coding instead'. I wonder what would have happened had someone convinced Marie Curie, Jane Austen, or Hillary Clinton to go into programming instead of their respective fields (yes, I realise computers weren't invented in the case of the former two, but I hope you understand my point). Finally, why is all this restricted to women only? Should I start advocating for Arabs? Africans? Inuit? It very quickly turns into a lot of duplicated effort. What's wrong with treating everyone equally? Not to mention that special-casing also reinforces the idea of 'us' and 'them', which I don't feel is productive either. (throwaway because I don't want to be burned at the stake for publicly asking such questions)

hyperpape 13y ago
My response elsewhere: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6985366 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6985366 From an economic perspective, having any group not participate in a valuable activity is a waste.
- throwaway135 13y ago
  You seem to be saying: since coding is a valuable activity, any group not coding is a waste. Is that correct?
  - hyperpape 13y ago
    Any group underrepresented in [valuable activity x]relative to its distribution of talent. You can theoretically have a distribution in which natural aptitude is equal, the distribution is skewed (more men than women) and it's not horribly inefficient, but I think if you spell out the assumptions of such a distribution, it's not especially realistic.
    - newnewnew 13y ago
      There is good reason to believe that natural aptitude is not equal[1][2] [1] https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7DMQCP3v6SZQUw1MnNWbXBUV3M/edit?pli=1 https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7DMQCP3v6SZQUw1MnNWbXBUV3M/... [2] http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/09/2012-sat-test-results-a-huge-gender-math-gap-persists-with-a-33-point-advantage-for-high-school-boys/ http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/09/2012-sat-test-results-a-hug...
    - tszyn 13y ago
      What if women are equal to men in coding aptitude, but simply don't want to code? Is that still a waste that we should do something about?
      - hyperpape 13y ago
        Depends on why. If it really is because regardless of what social expectations there are, women are just less interested, that's harmless. But I think it's obvious that with a look at history and present attitudes, we can't assume an observed difference in interest is neutral that way.
crassus 13y ago
I wonder if part of it is that hackers look down on female-dominated lines of work. We imagine that being like us is the best thing in the world. It is a decent line of work, mind you, but it has its downsides and not everybody is cut out for it.
- throwaway135 13y ago
  I think many in the tech community do look down on other professions. All the support for 'women in code' programs indicates that.
- Dewie 13y ago
  All of the disdain that some people show for activities and occupations that are more associated with participation from women does have some very ironic implications, given the stated intentions of those people.
- MartinCron 13y ago
  Hackers tend to look down on some male-dominated lines of work, too. It's not like you see a surplus of respect for construction workers or prison guards, for example. I think it's more of a class thing than a sex thing.
smtddr 13y ago
Here's my take: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6530237 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6530237
jacalata 13y ago
What's wrong with treating everyone equally? Does that mean 'do the same thing to everyone'? 'Equal' treatment can easily result in very unequal effects. For instance, if you put a staircase at the door to the classroom, everyone is being treated equally if they are all expected to go up the same staircase, even though that means some people can go in and others (people with crutches/wheelchairs/etc) can't. For another example, lets say public schools started charging every student the exact same fee of $10,000 per year: that would be equal treatment with a clearly unequal outcome, because some students started out in families that can afford the fee, and some didn't. Also, advocacy is not 'restricted to women' - but there are a lot of people who feel it is valuable to spend their time and effort on programs for women. There are also programs for black teenage boys, for inner city kids, probably for Africans (and African-Americans), that get less attention. If you feel that you can see some disadvantaged group you'd like to advocate for, go ahead. If you feel that you don't want to advocate for anyone, also go ahead. But it doesn't make sense to say that because you don't want to advocate for a group/any group, or think the effort is not worth it for you, then everyone else has to agree not to do it either. (And besides, in many cases obstacles for one group affect other groups, so it doesn't have to be duplication of effort but shared effort that can be applied more widely - eg: increasing awareness that not everybody is likely to have a USA traditional-geek-boy-in-highschool background helps interviewers learn to avoid questions that rely on an assumption of that shared background, which helps everyone with non-mainstream backgrounds like women, homeschooled kids, and foreigners).
newnewnew 13y ago
To understand the call for equal representation in tech, you have to understand cultural marxism. My previous thoughts on the issue: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6509118 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6509118

hyperpape 13y ago

My response elsewhere: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6985366 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6985366 From an economic perspective, having any group not participate in a valuable activity is a waste.

throwaway135 13y ago
You seem to be saying: since coding is a valuable activity, any group not coding is a waste. Is that correct?
- hyperpape 13y ago
  Any group underrepresented in [valuable activity x]relative to its distribution of talent. You can theoretically have a distribution in which natural aptitude is equal, the distribution is skewed (more men than women) and it's not horribly inefficient, but I think if you spell out the assumptions of such a distribution, it's not especially realistic.
  - newnewnew 13y ago
    There is good reason to believe that natural aptitude is not equal[1][2] [1] https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7DMQCP3v6SZQUw1MnNWbXBUV3M/edit?pli=1 https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7DMQCP3v6SZQUw1MnNWbXBUV3M/... [2] http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/09/2012-sat-test-results-a-huge-gender-math-gap-persists-with-a-33-point-advantage-for-high-school-boys/ http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/09/2012-sat-test-results-a-hug...
  - tszyn 13y ago
    What if women are equal to men in coding aptitude, but simply don't want to code? Is that still a waste that we should do something about?
    - hyperpape 13y ago
      Depends on why. If it really is because regardless of what social expectations there are, women are just less interested, that's harmless. But I think it's obvious that with a look at history and present attitudes, we can't assume an observed difference in interest is neutral that way.

crassus 13y ago

I wonder if part of it is that hackers look down on female-dominated lines of work. We imagine that being like us is the best thing in the world. It is a decent line of work, mind you, but it has its downsides and not everybody is cut out for it.

throwaway135 13y ago
I think many in the tech community do look down on other professions. All the support for 'women in code' programs indicates that.
Dewie 13y ago
All of the disdain that some people show for activities and occupations that are more associated with participation from women does have some very ironic implications, given the stated intentions of those people.
MartinCron 13y ago
Hackers tend to look down on some male-dominated lines of work, too. It's not like you see a surplus of respect for construction workers or prison guards, for example. I think it's more of a class thing than a sex thing.

smtddr 13y ago

Here's my take: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6530237 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6530237

jacalata 13y ago

What's wrong with treating everyone equally? Does that mean 'do the same thing to everyone'? 'Equal' treatment can easily result in very unequal effects. For instance, if you put a staircase at the door to the classroom, everyone is being treated equally if they are all expected to go up the same staircase, even though that means some people can go in and others (people with crutches/wheelchairs/etc) can't. For another example, lets say public schools started charging every student the exact same fee of $10,000 per year: that would be equal treatment with a clearly unequal outcome, because some students started out in families that can afford the fee, and some didn't. Also, advocacy is not 'restricted to women' - but there are a lot of people who feel it is valuable to spend their time and effort on programs for women. There are also programs for black teenage boys, for inner city kids, probably for Africans (and African-Americans), that get less attention. If you feel that you can see some disadvantaged group you'd like to advocate for, go ahead. If you feel that you don't want to advocate for anyone, also go ahead. But it doesn't make sense to say that because you don't want to advocate for a group/any group, or think the effort is not worth it for you, then everyone else has to agree not to do it either. (And besides, in many cases obstacles for one group affect other groups, so it doesn't have to be duplication of effort but shared effort that can be applied more widely - eg: increasing awareness that not everybody is likely to have a USA traditional-geek-boy-in-highschool background helps interviewers learn to avoid questions that rely on an assumption of that shared background, which helps everyone with non-mainstream backgrounds like women, homeschooled kids, and foreigners).

newnewnew 13y ago

To understand the call for equal representation in tech, you have to understand cultural marxism. My previous thoughts on the issue: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6509118 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6509118