5 ms·

Hilarious. It baffles me how this country continues to operate given the massive public spending/benefits, delightful reforms (e.g. proposed 80% tax rate for hi

by witek 13y ago

Hilarious. It baffles me how this country continues to operate given the massive public spending/benefits, delightful reforms (e.g. proposed 80% tax rate for high-earners) and pretty xenophobic view on immigration. ALL of my (highly-skilled) French friends do not plan to return in the foreseeable future.

jstalin 13y ago
Printed money is a helluva drug.
- Symmetry 13y ago
  France is part of the Euro, and it's pretty much the Germans who decide when new Euros get printed. They haven't proven sympathetic to the idea of printing many recently.
  - rguillebert 13y ago
    Since when does french-bashing need to be factually correct ?
    - jstalin 13y ago
      11% growth of Euro M1 in two years begs to differ... The world is awash in printed money, not just the Eurozone and not just France is taking advantage of it.
      - Symmetry 13y ago
        There's a reason central bankers are always so concerned with anchoring expectations. In deciding how much money to hold onto, people and businesses make a trade off between liquidity and the cost inflation imposes on them of holding a given quantity of money. But if people's expectations regarding future inflation change, that tradeoff changes in a positive feedback cycle. If people expect more inflation then they'll want to hold less money than otherwise and in most cases this will cause more inflation[1]. If people expect less inflation than previously they'll now want to hold more money, causing further deflation. Now, inflation expectations have clearly come unanchored because the GDP deflater, the measure of inflation most relevant to this particular effect, has been stuck closer to 1% than 2% since the financial crisis and the price spread between inflation protected and normal bonds means that the people who hold most of the M1 think this is likely to continue. These effects are both self-limiting, the desire for liquidity isn't that strong so we only saw an 11% growth in the money supply despite inflation falling by 30%. And the inflationary spiral will quickly (but painfully) stall out if the central bank doesn't keep printing money to match demand. Which is to say that sure, there's more cash floating around, but it's not just washing around it's being stored in people's pockets. It might be liable to cause excess inflation if the ECB ever manages to convince people that it will be able to hit its targets in the future, but it's not particularly benefiting France at the moment. [1] In the mainstream economics sense of a rise in the price level, not the odd Austrian school definition.
mtrimpe 13y ago
>ALL of my (highly-skilled) French friends do not plan to return in the foreseeable future. You are aware that there might be a tiny hint of selection bias at play there... right? ;)
- JoeAltmaier 13y ago
  Sure! All skilled folks that leave France, don't want to go back. That's the point.
  - bausson 13y ago
    ALL of my (highly-skilled) french friends still in France do not plan to leave in the foreseeable future. All my (highly-skilled) foreigner friends do not plan to leave either. So with your argumentation, France is probably the best country in the world.
    - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
      Except the ones in the USA have knowledge of both worlds.
simias 13y ago
While the situation in TFA is spectacularly ridiculous and shameful for me as a french I don't think it warrants this kind of gratuitous french bashing. Unless of course you want to explain to us what the french taxation laws have to do with this particular court decision. Also it's 75%, not 80%. That might not be very significant overall but it makes me doubt you really know what you're talking about.
- rguillebert 13y ago
  And it's the marginal tax rate (beyond 1 million €).
  - throwaway092834 13y ago
    Worth noting the US top marginal tax rate has been above 90% at several points in history.
    - Tloewald 13y ago
      Including during the sainted Eisenhower administration.
- witek 13y ago
  I guess my comment wasn't strictly limited to this court decision but I wouldn't consider it as French-bashing. I have nothing against your country and compatriots, and I have enjoyed many fun moments there. However, I and my two French flatmates are genuinely curious how France can continue on its current public-spending/entrepreneurship-throttling trajectory.
  - simias 13y ago
    It's an interesting discussion and I have mixed feelings about the current french "trajectory" as you put it. However I don't think this is the place to discuss politics so I'll refrain from engaging in this debate. However I think from a hacker perspective it should be interesting to see a country that tries to do things differently from what appears to be the norm in most of the western world and whether it'll succeed or fail utterly. I know that most people on HN are big on "laissez-faire" and business deregulations but it's a bit disingenuous to present it as the solution to all problems. We value thinking out of the box for engineering, why not for politics? "Look, a new economic system in 30 lines of socialism!". I wish people were less adamant and more level-headed when it came to politics and economy, it's hard to have a reasonable discussion on those subjects.
bru 13y ago
I'm not surprised by such a comment, but finding it on HN saddens me. xenophoby? Oh USA, building a wall to keep your neighbours out of your lawn, please tell me more! Our economy? Of course American governement-sponsored 'liberalism' is a beacon for the free world, and dissidents are morons. Please have a look at this recent article by Paul Krugman: The Plot Against France[0]. Your high-skilled French friends? I have the luck to be put in that population. What I see around me is that we travel and work world-wide, until we start a family most of the time. 0: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/11/opinion/krugman-the-plot-against-france.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/11/opinion/krugman-the-plot-a...
- judk 13y ago
  Europe has an ocean to keep most of its poorer would-be neighbors away. You can't wave away geography. The US is comparable to Europe, not one country in Europe.
  - mavroprovato 13y ago
    Which is this ocean you are talking about? Because Europe has only the Atlantic Ocean on its West and the nearest countries on the Other side of the Atlantic are the US and Canada.
    - jff 13y ago
      Perhaps the Mediterranean? They call it a "sea" if you want to be pedantic.
      - mavroprovato 13y ago
        Yes they call it a sea, because it is not an ocean, I don't understand why you call me a pendant. More importantly though, you might not be following the news in Europe, but many immigrants try to cross the Mediterranean in order to get into Europe, and many unfortunately die. So it is not that it keeps anyone away.
doe88 13y ago
That baffles me how some people are so much bitter toward France they take any occasion to take a cheap shot. > xenophobic view on immigration. Given this ranking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign-born_population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign-bo... I don't think we have any advice to receive from anybody on the question of immigration. Granted there are some problems ampiflified by the economic crisis but given the rates of immigration we had to absorb in the previous decades I would say the situation is not that bad.
- bmelton 13y ago
  Why does one have to be in a free-bordered country to critique another nation's immigration policies? As an American, I disagree with American immigration policies, and also disagree with France's. Is my opinion discounted because I'm an American?
  - doe88 13y ago
    > and also disagree with France's. I would have said the same thing if he was French, to say France has xenophobic views on immigrations is plain wrong. And yes no direspect to you but I don't think you can rightly evaluate the situation in France by reading comments on internet or articles in the news, you have to live here and see by yourself. I would say two things: there is much more immigration than what the numbers suggest at least in my area (I live in a big town in south of france) and secondly there are a lot less problems and much more integration than what is reported in the news. And BTW, I consider myself as liberal (US meaning of the term) and I'm not bothered by immigration I even welcome it, it's good for diversity, but there is no denying that France has welcomed in the past decades a lot of immigrants so maybe in these difficult times there is a bit more friction than usual.
    - bmelton 13y ago
      > you have to live here and see by yourself Living somewhere doesn't give you as much insight to a place's immigration policies as attempting to emigrate to that place. Regardless, it's not imprudent to question the efficacy of broad social benefits while simultaneously supporting open borders. It is equally okay to believe that your country should benefit from the diversity that can only be achieved with easy immigration laws, and be willing to accept an increase in taxes to support that objective. It's also okay to view the other position as negative based on your views, and a person's country of origin or current residency does not affect the validity of their opinion.
DenisM 13y ago
>my (highly-skilled) French friends do not plan to return in the foreseeable future Selection bias alert! You're more likely to meet people who swore to never return than those don't mind returning.
- epsylon 13y ago
  Not to mention the fact that software engineering salaries are notoriously low in France compared to the US. Thus most people who have emigrated have strong financial incentives to stay there. (Well, at least until they have cancer and crappy insurance or they have to send their kids to college)

by witek 13y ago

jstalin 13y ago

Printed money is a helluva drug.

Symmetry 13y ago
France is part of the Euro, and it's pretty much the Germans who decide when new Euros get printed. They haven't proven sympathetic to the idea of printing many recently.
- rguillebert 13y ago
  Since when does french-bashing need to be factually correct ?
  - jstalin 13y ago
    11% growth of Euro M1 in two years begs to differ... The world is awash in printed money, not just the Eurozone and not just France is taking advantage of it.
    - Symmetry 13y ago
      There's a reason central bankers are always so concerned with anchoring expectations. In deciding how much money to hold onto, people and businesses make a trade off between liquidity and the cost inflation imposes on them of holding a given quantity of money. But if people's expectations regarding future inflation change, that tradeoff changes in a positive feedback cycle. If people expect more inflation then they'll want to hold less money than otherwise and in most cases this will cause more inflation[1]. If people expect less inflation than previously they'll now want to hold more money, causing further deflation. Now, inflation expectations have clearly come unanchored because the GDP deflater, the measure of inflation most relevant to this particular effect, has been stuck closer to 1% than 2% since the financial crisis and the price spread between inflation protected and normal bonds means that the people who hold most of the M1 think this is likely to continue. These effects are both self-limiting, the desire for liquidity isn't that strong so we only saw an 11% growth in the money supply despite inflation falling by 30%. And the inflationary spiral will quickly (but painfully) stall out if the central bank doesn't keep printing money to match demand. Which is to say that sure, there's more cash floating around, but it's not just washing around it's being stored in people's pockets. It might be liable to cause excess inflation if the ECB ever manages to convince people that it will be able to hit its targets in the future, but it's not particularly benefiting France at the moment. [1] In the mainstream economics sense of a rise in the price level, not the odd Austrian school definition.

mtrimpe 13y ago

>ALL of my (highly-skilled) French friends do not plan to return in the foreseeable future. You are aware that there might be a tiny hint of selection bias at play there... right? ;)

JoeAltmaier 13y ago
Sure! All skilled folks that leave France, don't want to go back. That's the point.
- bausson 13y ago
  ALL of my (highly-skilled) french friends still in France do not plan to leave in the foreseeable future. All my (highly-skilled) foreigner friends do not plan to leave either. So with your argumentation, France is probably the best country in the world.
  - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
    Except the ones in the USA have knowledge of both worlds.

simias 13y ago

While the situation in TFA is spectacularly ridiculous and shameful for me as a french I don't think it warrants this kind of gratuitous french bashing. Unless of course you want to explain to us what the french taxation laws have to do with this particular court decision. Also it's 75%, not 80%. That might not be very significant overall but it makes me doubt you really know what you're talking about.

rguillebert 13y ago
And it's the marginal tax rate (beyond 1 million €).
- throwaway092834 13y ago
  Worth noting the US top marginal tax rate has been above 90% at several points in history.
  - Tloewald 13y ago
    Including during the sainted Eisenhower administration.
witek 13y ago
I guess my comment wasn't strictly limited to this court decision but I wouldn't consider it as French-bashing. I have nothing against your country and compatriots, and I have enjoyed many fun moments there. However, I and my two French flatmates are genuinely curious how France can continue on its current public-spending/entrepreneurship-throttling trajectory.
- simias 13y ago
  It's an interesting discussion and I have mixed feelings about the current french "trajectory" as you put it. However I don't think this is the place to discuss politics so I'll refrain from engaging in this debate. However I think from a hacker perspective it should be interesting to see a country that tries to do things differently from what appears to be the norm in most of the western world and whether it'll succeed or fail utterly. I know that most people on HN are big on "laissez-faire" and business deregulations but it's a bit disingenuous to present it as the solution to all problems. We value thinking out of the box for engineering, why not for politics? "Look, a new economic system in 30 lines of socialism!". I wish people were less adamant and more level-headed when it came to politics and economy, it's hard to have a reasonable discussion on those subjects.

bru 13y ago

I'm not surprised by such a comment, but finding it on HN saddens me. xenophoby? Oh USA, building a wall to keep your neighbours out of your lawn, please tell me more! Our economy? Of course American governement-sponsored 'liberalism' is a beacon for the free world, and dissidents are morons. Please have a look at this recent article by Paul Krugman: The Plot Against France[0]. Your high-skilled French friends? I have the luck to be put in that population. What I see around me is that we travel and work world-wide, until we start a family most of the time. 0: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/11/opinion/krugman-the-plot-against-france.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/11/opinion/krugman-the-plot-a...

judk 13y ago
Europe has an ocean to keep most of its poorer would-be neighbors away. You can't wave away geography. The US is comparable to Europe, not one country in Europe.
- mavroprovato 13y ago
  Which is this ocean you are talking about? Because Europe has only the Atlantic Ocean on its West and the nearest countries on the Other side of the Atlantic are the US and Canada.
  - jff 13y ago
    Perhaps the Mediterranean? They call it a "sea" if you want to be pedantic.
    - mavroprovato 13y ago
      Yes they call it a sea, because it is not an ocean, I don't understand why you call me a pendant. More importantly though, you might not be following the news in Europe, but many immigrants try to cross the Mediterranean in order to get into Europe, and many unfortunately die. So it is not that it keeps anyone away.

doe88 13y ago

That baffles me how some people are so much bitter toward France they take any occasion to take a cheap shot. > xenophobic view on immigration. Given this ranking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign-born_population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign-bo... I don't think we have any advice to receive from anybody on the question of immigration. Granted there are some problems ampiflified by the economic crisis but given the rates of immigration we had to absorb in the previous decades I would say the situation is not that bad.

bmelton 13y ago
Why does one have to be in a free-bordered country to critique another nation's immigration policies? As an American, I disagree with American immigration policies, and also disagree with France's. Is my opinion discounted because I'm an American?
- doe88 13y ago
  > and also disagree with France's. I would have said the same thing if he was French, to say France has xenophobic views on immigrations is plain wrong. And yes no direspect to you but I don't think you can rightly evaluate the situation in France by reading comments on internet or articles in the news, you have to live here and see by yourself. I would say two things: there is much more immigration than what the numbers suggest at least in my area (I live in a big town in south of france) and secondly there are a lot less problems and much more integration than what is reported in the news. And BTW, I consider myself as liberal (US meaning of the term) and I'm not bothered by immigration I even welcome it, it's good for diversity, but there is no denying that France has welcomed in the past decades a lot of immigrants so maybe in these difficult times there is a bit more friction than usual.
  - bmelton 13y ago
    > you have to live here and see by yourself Living somewhere doesn't give you as much insight to a place's immigration policies as attempting to emigrate to that place. Regardless, it's not imprudent to question the efficacy of broad social benefits while simultaneously supporting open borders. It is equally okay to believe that your country should benefit from the diversity that can only be achieved with easy immigration laws, and be willing to accept an increase in taxes to support that objective. It's also okay to view the other position as negative based on your views, and a person's country of origin or current residency does not affect the validity of their opinion.

DenisM 13y ago

>my (highly-skilled) French friends do not plan to return in the foreseeable future Selection bias alert! You're more likely to meet people who swore to never return than those don't mind returning.

epsylon 13y ago
Not to mention the fact that software engineering salaries are notoriously low in France compared to the US. Thus most people who have emigrated have strong financial incentives to stay there. (Well, at least until they have cancer and crappy insurance or they have to send their kids to college)