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Kissing someone who doesn't want to be kissed is sexual assault! I don't understand how you can be denying that? It definitely definitely is sexual assault. If

by duairc 13y ago

Kissing someone who doesn't want to be kissed is sexual assault! I don't understand how you can be denying that? It definitely definitely is sexual assault. If you want to kiss somebody and you want to not sexually assault them, you have to ask them first. And you have to give them room to say no and consider the social power you have over them. Did this person do that? No, absolutely not. If you don't think this stuff is important then it's because you're obviously a man who has never had to deal with this kind of stuff. And even if for some reason, you feel so strongly that the definition of sexual assault should not include the incident you're talking about, and you don't have any problem with taking away the power of survivors to define their experiences as sexual assault, then okay, fine, you can have your own private definition of sexual assault. But do you really think that's the most important thing here? You obviously have no empathy for the survivor at all. The “dumb guy” doesn't deserve to have his life ruined? Maybe, maybe not, but you shouldn't worry about it, because only 3% of rapes ever punished anyway.[1] But it's not about the perpetrator, it's about the survivor. Does she deserve to have her life ruined? Of course she doesn't, because she's done nothing wrong (fuck you for victim blaming). But this could have ruined her life, and maybe it did (I don't know her, I don't know). And by the way, "escalat[ing] an existing sexual situation" are just your weasel words for "crossing boundaries without permission". You always have to ask permission, and it's not hard to do so, and it's nice as well. If you're not a rapist, then you don't want to cross people's boundaries, so you don't want to do something if the other person doesn't want to. You might want to read the definition of rape-mindedness.[2] Thanks for proving my point. [1]: http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-ra... [2]: http://radtransfem.tumblr.com/post/30163502692/tw-what-rape-is-not-and-a-suggested-new-crime http://radtransfem.tumblr.com/post/30163502692/tw-what-rape-...

nailer 13y ago
I really wasn't sure if you were a parody account created by 4chan for amusement purposes, but apparently you've been here a while, so: - Sexual boundaries were already crossed at the stage of people willingly doing body shots off each other. - You are discussing rape. Nobody at any point has alleged rape. Rape is a serious criminal allegation you really shouldn't be bandying about lightly. - She /survived/ an unwanted kiss? Are you sure that is an appropriate definition of 'survived'? - "The 'dumb guy' doesn't deserve to have his life ruined? Maybe..." You're "maybe" sure someone doesn't deserve to have their life ruined? - What defines one person as the victim and the other as the perpetrator? Who do you think came out worse for this interaction, the person blogging about their assault or the person who, when asked not to do sexual things, stopped, and then was accused of sexual assault across the entire internet? - Please use grown up language. 'fuck you' is not grown up language. See: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html - Me pointing out that two people did stupid things is not 'rape minded'. You are attempting to shame me for disagreeing with you, which is morally reprehensible.
- duairc 13y ago
  I'm not a parody, I'm 100% serious. > Sexual boundaries were already crossed at the stage of people willingly doing body shots off each other. You completely misunderstand. I'm pretty sure you're doing it deliberately too, but let's assume you're not. If people were “willingly” doing body shots off each other, then in what way were “sexual boundaries” “crossed”? You just mean to say that something “sexual” was happening, therefore the “boundary” between “sexual” and “not sexual” was crossed? Okay, fine, that's trivially true. But given that this was apparently “willingly”, then nobody was being violated, nobody had their own personal boundaries crossed without permission. When the perpetrator kissed the woman without her permission, then he crossed her boundaries without her permission. Do you see the difference? > You are discussing rape. Nobody at any point has alleged rape. Rape is a serious criminal allegation you really shouldn't be bandying about lightly. I'm am not bandying it about lightly. Sexual assault and rape, if not synonymous, are obviously very related acts. I gave some statistics for how often rape is punished. I think it's reasonable to assume that the statistics for sexual assault are similar if not the same. My point was that you need not worry about “serious criminal allegations”, the justice system does not care about women who are sexually assaulted or raped. > She /survived/ an unwanted kiss? Are you sure that is an appropriate definition of 'survived'? The term “survivor” is preferred to the term “victim”. I'm not a huge fan of it but it's better than “victim”.[1] > "The 'dumb guy' doesn't deserve to have his life ruined? Maybe..." You're "maybe" sure someone doesn't deserve to have their life ruined? If you look at my comment history, you see I oppose prisons and the justice system in its entirety. But I don't feel like it's my place to say what this guy “deserves”. But anyway, you're still ignoring that this is an abstract, theoretical discussion: the fact is that this woman's life, in all likelihood has actually been ruined, for the time being at least. The perpetrator will never face any criminal repercussions. Yet, you're still empathising with the perpetrator, and not at all with the survivor. > What defines one person as the victim and the other as the perpetrator? Who do you think came out worse for this interaction, the person blogging about their assault or the person who, when asked not to do sexual things, stopped, and then was accused of sexual assault across the entire internet? The perpetrator is the person who kissed the woman (who didn't want to be kissed) without her permission. The “victim” is the one whose left the situation feeling sexually violated. It's pretty clear and you know it is. I don't know who came out of it worse, but you're acting like this person was wrongly accused of sexual assault, but it's exactly what they did. If you don't want to be publicly accused of sexual assault then you shouldn't sexually assault people. > Please use grown up language. 'fuck you' is not grown up language. See: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html You're using the tone argument.[2] This is pretty weak. In any case, I'd like to think I'd be able to say “fuck you for victim blaming” to your face in real life (in accordance with the guidelines), but realistically I would probably just hold it in. > Me pointing out that two people did stupid things is not 'rape minded'. You are attempting to shame me for disagreeing with you, which is morally reprehensible. I never said that you're rape-minded, that's a ridiculous misreading of my post. I'm saying that the perpetrator of this assault was rape-minded. The point of the definition of rape-mindedness is that there are lots of things like this which are “not rape”, but are still leave the survivor feeling sexually violated, and the concept of rape-mindedness captures what it is about the behaviour of the perpetrator that leaves the survivor with that feeling. Also, you keep insisting that the survivor is as responsible for this as the perpetrator. You're completely ignoring the social power that the perpetrator had over the survivor. [1]: http://akhilak.com/blog/2012/03/13/why-words-matter-victim-v-survivor/ http://akhilak.com/blog/2012/03/13/why-words-matter-victim-v... [2]: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument
petercooper 13y ago
Kissing someone who doesn't want to be kissed is sexual assault If you assume all kissing is sexual in nature.

by duairc 13y ago

nailer 13y ago

I really wasn't sure if you were a parody account created by 4chan for amusement purposes, but apparently you've been here a while, so: - Sexual boundaries were already crossed at the stage of people willingly doing body shots off each other. - You are discussing rape. Nobody at any point has alleged rape. Rape is a serious criminal allegation you really shouldn't be bandying about lightly. - She /survived/ an unwanted kiss? Are you sure that is an appropriate definition of 'survived'? - "The 'dumb guy' doesn't deserve to have his life ruined? Maybe..." You're "maybe" sure someone doesn't deserve to have their life ruined? - What defines one person as the victim and the other as the perpetrator? Who do you think came out worse for this interaction, the person blogging about their assault or the person who, when asked not to do sexual things, stopped, and then was accused of sexual assault across the entire internet? - Please use grown up language. 'fuck you' is not grown up language. See: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html - Me pointing out that two people did stupid things is not 'rape minded'. You are attempting to shame me for disagreeing with you, which is morally reprehensible.

duairc 13y ago
I'm not a parody, I'm 100% serious. > Sexual boundaries were already crossed at the stage of people willingly doing body shots off each other. You completely misunderstand. I'm pretty sure you're doing it deliberately too, but let's assume you're not. If people were “willingly” doing body shots off each other, then in what way were “sexual boundaries” “crossed”? You just mean to say that something “sexual” was happening, therefore the “boundary” between “sexual” and “not sexual” was crossed? Okay, fine, that's trivially true. But given that this was apparently “willingly”, then nobody was being violated, nobody had their own personal boundaries crossed without permission. When the perpetrator kissed the woman without her permission, then he crossed her boundaries without her permission. Do you see the difference? > You are discussing rape. Nobody at any point has alleged rape. Rape is a serious criminal allegation you really shouldn't be bandying about lightly. I'm am not bandying it about lightly. Sexual assault and rape, if not synonymous, are obviously very related acts. I gave some statistics for how often rape is punished. I think it's reasonable to assume that the statistics for sexual assault are similar if not the same. My point was that you need not worry about “serious criminal allegations”, the justice system does not care about women who are sexually assaulted or raped. > She /survived/ an unwanted kiss? Are you sure that is an appropriate definition of 'survived'? The term “survivor” is preferred to the term “victim”. I'm not a huge fan of it but it's better than “victim”.[1] > "The 'dumb guy' doesn't deserve to have his life ruined? Maybe..." You're "maybe" sure someone doesn't deserve to have their life ruined? If you look at my comment history, you see I oppose prisons and the justice system in its entirety. But I don't feel like it's my place to say what this guy “deserves”. But anyway, you're still ignoring that this is an abstract, theoretical discussion: the fact is that this woman's life, in all likelihood has actually been ruined, for the time being at least. The perpetrator will never face any criminal repercussions. Yet, you're still empathising with the perpetrator, and not at all with the survivor. > What defines one person as the victim and the other as the perpetrator? Who do you think came out worse for this interaction, the person blogging about their assault or the person who, when asked not to do sexual things, stopped, and then was accused of sexual assault across the entire internet? The perpetrator is the person who kissed the woman (who didn't want to be kissed) without her permission. The “victim” is the one whose left the situation feeling sexually violated. It's pretty clear and you know it is. I don't know who came out of it worse, but you're acting like this person was wrongly accused of sexual assault, but it's exactly what they did. If you don't want to be publicly accused of sexual assault then you shouldn't sexually assault people. > Please use grown up language. 'fuck you' is not grown up language. See: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html You're using the tone argument.[2] This is pretty weak. In any case, I'd like to think I'd be able to say “fuck you for victim blaming” to your face in real life (in accordance with the guidelines), but realistically I would probably just hold it in. > Me pointing out that two people did stupid things is not 'rape minded'. You are attempting to shame me for disagreeing with you, which is morally reprehensible. I never said that you're rape-minded, that's a ridiculous misreading of my post. I'm saying that the perpetrator of this assault was rape-minded. The point of the definition of rape-mindedness is that there are lots of things like this which are “not rape”, but are still leave the survivor feeling sexually violated, and the concept of rape-mindedness captures what it is about the behaviour of the perpetrator that leaves the survivor with that feeling. Also, you keep insisting that the survivor is as responsible for this as the perpetrator. You're completely ignoring the social power that the perpetrator had over the survivor. [1]: http://akhilak.com/blog/2012/03/13/why-words-matter-victim-v-survivor/ http://akhilak.com/blog/2012/03/13/why-words-matter-victim-v... [2]: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument

petercooper 13y ago

Kissing someone who doesn't want to be kissed is sexual assault If you assume all kissing is sexual in nature.