5 ms·

Report charges U.S. with conducting illegal operations from German soil

44 points by teamgb 13y ago

antonius 13y ago
The title of the article makes it sound like the US has damaged ties with Germany. Apparently not: “The worst part? Germany doesn’t even seem to mind.”
- Kliment 13y ago
  The government does not seem to mind. A number of us living here do.
  - xoneliaxiphi 13y ago
    Angela Merkel needs to be put on trial for violating the verfassungsschutz! As an American living here, life just got a whole lot more difficult!
  - waps 13y ago
    And what are the government's own spying practices ? Ah : http://www.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/content/view/209/1/lang,en/ http://www.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/content/view/209/1/lan... (please note that the only thing the court did was place limits. Every ISP that has lines in Germany is still forced to (a) spy on all it's customers and report the data to the German government (b) allow Germany to tap any of it's customers. It's just that the resulting data can't be used in civil suits) Given that Germany does this to it's own citizens, isn't it exactly as bad as the US ? Sure, it looks like the German government is somewhat less capable when it comes to spying than the NSA is, but it's not fundamentally different. And of course, that could be an illusion. I seem to remember having this article about how Germany sold an old diesel submarine capable of undersea fiber tapping to Israel. I can't seem to find the article, but it does mean Germany has these subs. I find it hard to believe they're unused. Here's an article about the British version : http://intelnews.org/2013/08/29/01-1331/ http://intelnews.org/2013/08/29/01-1331/ I'm in telecommunications and I know for a fact that all northwest european countries have these demands on ISPs. Germany's no exception.
    - beloch 13y ago
      So... What the U.S. is doing is A-OK because things might be worse in the former stomping grounds of the Stasi? Allrighty then! (Seriously though, if a population that includes former East-Germans is complaining...)
    - nraynaud 13y ago
      that's a race to the bottom. Those countries get away with it because big brother is doing it first.
- bayesianhorse 13y ago
  It depends. Outrage against the US had already peaked when Merkel was spied on. Currently it looks as if the evidence has to be verified before doing anything about it, and there is an aspect of confusion about what to do with an ally that is still extremely valuable. One aspect is that the US has been doing stuff that is incompatible both with their and our constitution. Moreover, Germany is constitutionally prohibited from participating in any war on the attacker's side. Hosting drone operators would violate this commandment.
cvshepherd 13y ago
"Although we do not comment on specifics, as a matter of policy the United States does not engage in kidnapping and torture, and does not condone or support the resort to such illegal activities by any nation." i'm at a loss for words.
coldarchon 13y ago
“Although we do not comment on specifics, as a matter of policy the United States does not engage in kidnapping and torture" Like in Guantanamo, some of them actually had German citizenship. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murat_Kurnaz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murat_Kurnaz
pkinsky 13y ago
>“The American Embassy also comments and rejects the reports as innuendo. They are stating the United States ‘are not kidnapping and torturing on principle.’ This is a daring claim. Only seven months ago a commission made up of Democrats and Republicans called it ‘undeniable’ that the United States tortured inmates following the terror attacks of 2001. Even President Barack Obama said in 2009 that the American practice of waterboarding was torture.” Schadenfreude is my favorite German loan word.

44 points by teamgb 13y ago

The title of the article makes it sound like the US has damaged ties with Germany. Apparently not: “The worst part? Germany doesn’t even seem to mind.”

Kliment 13y ago
The government does not seem to mind. A number of us living here do.
- xoneliaxiphi 13y ago
  Angela Merkel needs to be put on trial for violating the verfassungsschutz! As an American living here, life just got a whole lot more difficult!
- waps 13y ago
  And what are the government's own spying practices ? Ah : http://www.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/content/view/209/1/lang,en/ http://www.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/content/view/209/1/lan... (please note that the only thing the court did was place limits. Every ISP that has lines in Germany is still forced to (a) spy on all it's customers and report the data to the German government (b) allow Germany to tap any of it's customers. It's just that the resulting data can't be used in civil suits) Given that Germany does this to it's own citizens, isn't it exactly as bad as the US ? Sure, it looks like the German government is somewhat less capable when it comes to spying than the NSA is, but it's not fundamentally different. And of course, that could be an illusion. I seem to remember having this article about how Germany sold an old diesel submarine capable of undersea fiber tapping to Israel. I can't seem to find the article, but it does mean Germany has these subs. I find it hard to believe they're unused. Here's an article about the British version : http://intelnews.org/2013/08/29/01-1331/ http://intelnews.org/2013/08/29/01-1331/ I'm in telecommunications and I know for a fact that all northwest european countries have these demands on ISPs. Germany's no exception.
  - beloch 13y ago
    So... What the U.S. is doing is A-OK because things might be worse in the former stomping grounds of the Stasi? Allrighty then! (Seriously though, if a population that includes former East-Germans is complaining...)
  - nraynaud 13y ago
    that's a race to the bottom. Those countries get away with it because big brother is doing it first.
bayesianhorse 13y ago
It depends. Outrage against the US had already peaked when Merkel was spied on. Currently it looks as if the evidence has to be verified before doing anything about it, and there is an aspect of confusion about what to do with an ally that is still extremely valuable. One aspect is that the US has been doing stuff that is incompatible both with their and our constitution. Moreover, Germany is constitutionally prohibited from participating in any war on the attacker's side. Hosting drone operators would violate this commandment.

cvshepherd 13y ago

"Although we do not comment on specifics, as a matter of policy the United States does not engage in kidnapping and torture, and does not condone or support the resort to such illegal activities by any nation." i'm at a loss for words.

coldarchon 13y ago

“Although we do not comment on specifics, as a matter of policy the United States does not engage in kidnapping and torture" Like in Guantanamo, some of them actually had German citizenship. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murat_Kurnaz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murat_Kurnaz

pkinsky 13y ago

>“The American Embassy also comments and rejects the reports as innuendo. They are stating the United States ‘are not kidnapping and torturing on principle.’ This is a daring claim. Only seven months ago a commission made up of Democrats and Republicans called it ‘undeniable’ that the United States tortured inmates following the terror attacks of 2001. Even President Barack Obama said in 2009 that the American practice of waterboarding was torture.” Schadenfreude is my favorite German loan word.