7 ms·

Outsourcing your chores is a good thing

49 points by gbvb 13y ago

cmbaus 13y ago
At one point I hired a personal assistant through oDesk. I took this idea from Timothy Ferriss's 4-Hour Workweek, but I hired someone in the US. I wanted to get a landscaping project done (that was required by the environmental regulators in Tahoe), but I didn't have time to track down the contractors, do background checks, make sure they showed up, and finally get the regulators to sign off on the project. The contractors thought it was pretty strange to have to deal with someone in a different state, but it worked out pretty well. Our culture (at least here in the US) doesn't appreciate outsourcing day to day tasks (and I felt embarrassed telling people I had an assistant). Maybe this comes from our Protestant roots. It reminds me of an episode of Garrison Keillor's Prairie Home Companion. Some of his characters from Minnesota visit California and find out one of their relatives has a gardener, and they ask if the relative is having any health issues, because they couldn't imagine having someone do their gardening for them, unless they were severely ill. Update: The poster above mentions getting what you pay for if you pay $2 per hour in the Philippines for instance. I agree with this. I payed significantly more, but I feel as though I got my money's worth. It isn't that expensive to hire in the US if you look to lower cost areas like the Mid-west. For this project, I felt it was worth it to have someone who understood the problems of hiring and managing contractors in the US. The person I hired was a homeowner, understood what I wanted to accomplish, and did an awesome job. It turned out to be a fraction of the cost of the overall project, and was money well spent.
- ghaff 13y ago
  I'm not sure it's related to work ethic or religious roots but it's certainly true that there was never a particular culture in the US of service whereby even people of fairly middle-class backgrounds had servants. And this has probably carried over to modern culture whereby people probably outsource fewer tasks like grass cutting, housecleaning, and so forth than they arguably should (whatever that word means in this context). That said, a lot of people do outsource tasks like cooking--but they do so in different ways (like going to restaurants) rather than by explicitly hiring help.
  - cmbaus 13y ago
    Outsourcing by eating out has become much more acceptable in the past few years, but I can remember growing up that eating out was considered a luxury. But restaurants can achieve economies a scale that are difficult to get at home, especially if you don't have a large family. In many cases, eating at a restaurant or having food delivered isn't that bad of a deal.
  - veidr 13y ago
    It's a good point about eating at restauranta vs. hiring a chef; in my limited norcal experience, it cost less to have a come-and-cook chef weekdays than it did to routinely eat out, and it was substantially more awesome in several ways. Despite it costing less, though, several of my fellow Americans thought the chef was like, bourgeois, or pretentious, or something. (I would still do it, except now I have a wife who cooks, and resists my lobbying to outsource this function...)
    - netcan 13y ago
      Tell her it will free her up to spend more time on other wifely tasks.
    - beat 13y ago
      My college-age daughter LOVES to cook and finds it relaxing. I call her my "personal chef" and have basically turned over all household food stuff to her, freeing my time for other things.
  - _delirium 13y ago
    Yeah, I think it definitely has a "weird things aristocratic British people do" association: job titles like au pair, chauffeur, butler, chef, governess, etc. don't seem like something that would fit into a red-blooded, down-to-earth American household. Housecleaning and grass cutting are really common to pay people for in the U.S., though. I think in the neighborhood I grew up the same large company must've had at least 20-30% of the lawns, because they basically came through with their big trailers of equipment and went house to house marching through their customer list.
  - 13y ago
joelrunyon 13y ago
I got a VA from the Philippines earlier this year & it's changed my business. I spend less time doing basic research, and repeatable tasks that I can do - but is simply not a good use of my time. I finally sat down, did a few of my tasks & documented each one, step by step, creating SOPs (standard operating procedures) for each one. It was a little tedious as first, but once my VA got after it - it freed up tons of time for me (but almost more importantly - head space & energy). Most people who have bad experiences with VAs either don't have a good idea how to manage them or don't have a budget to get someone competent for the tasks they're requesting (paying people $2/hour & you'll get what you pay for). Go in with reasonable expectations, good systems & processes in place & you'll have a great experience.
- dman 13y ago
  what does VA mean in this context?
  - charlieirish 13y ago
    Virtual Assistant
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - joelrunyon 13y ago
    Sorry - VA = virtual assistant.
    - dman 13y ago
      Thanks for sharing your experiences. I had not considered having a VA at all but am now going to give it a try.
- im3w1l 13y ago
  How much do you pay then?
  - 13y ago
altero 13y ago
Outsourcing meals and cleaning is pretty common. Yet another economical article which discovers america. BTW: when we had first baby, we hired doula for several weeks. Very good investment.
russjhammond 13y ago
The best advantage I have found with our VA is having them listen to all the podcasts I want to listen to, summarize the articles and send me the transcript. Then I can skim in 30 seconds what use to take me 45-60 minutes to listen to. Also, I have found Odesk very helpful when our sales people ask for custom demos for clients. Instead of distracting our team I hire someone on Odesk to reskin our demo app. The best part is I know exactly how much that demo costs and like to let sales know so they can decide for their self if a demo is warranted in each situation. As for personal tasks, I love using the concierge service attached to my credit card. Just recently I had them research all the candidates up for local election for me, find out how to return a jacket I bought on a business trip across the country, and suggest some recipes for a halloween party. I have a running list of my favorite things I have sent to my concierge on Quora: https://www.quora.com/Concierge-Services/What-are-some-good-uses-for-a-credit-cards-concierge-service https://www.quora.com/Concierge-Services/What-are-some-good-... I also have a running list on my blog: http://delegnation.com/ http://delegnation.com/ A presentation I did at a Product Camp recently about using outsourcing to support product management: http://www.slideshare.net/russjhammond/product-camp-nashville-92813 http://www.slideshare.net/russjhammond/product-camp-nashvill...
- joelrunyon 13y ago
  For the podcasts - have you tried listening to them at 1.5x or 2x speed? I started doing that & it's saved me tons of time & I can get through way more content (doesn't sound that weird once you get used to it either). On your credit card - is that the Amex Platinum? I have a friend that uses them as a personal assistant basically.
  - russjhammond 13y ago
    I do use the 1.5x feature but save that for the podcasts I actually listen to. By reading the transcripts I can "monitor" 3-5 weekly, hour long podcasts in 15 minutes. As for the card, yes I use an AMEX Platinum but believe Visa Signature and MasterCard World Elite also offer a similar service.
    - 13y ago
huherto 13y ago
sigh...If I could only outsource my HN reading I would be so much productive.
- visakanv 13y ago
  You do know that's a weasel statement, right?
- dllthomas 13y ago
  Why can't you?
  - angersock 13y ago
    I for one am reluctant to entrust somebody else with posting as angersock... I don't want to dilute the brand quality, the meticulous posting, the careful planning and forethought that goes into each bespoke communique. For some things, if you want them done right, you have to do them yourself.
    - dllthomas 13y ago
      I doubt actually posting is the bulk of the time you spend on HN, though. Paying someone to filter a bit could make sense. Possibly.
hajderr 13y ago
Talk about degrading family value. Doing chores is beneficial and a nice way of taking a break.
- joelrunyon 13y ago
  I don't think you read the whole article or you would have caught this: > (Oddly, it’s perfectly fine if leisure time includes those inefficient D.I.Y. household tasks that some people find rewarding and fun, like pickling beets or knitting.) If you find it fun - do it. If not, outsource it as fast as possible.
  - quaffapint 13y ago
    So if it's not fun, don't do it. Does that sound like a healthy philosophy to pass down?
    - joelrunyon 13y ago
      How bout: If you want to or have to do it - do it. If you don't want to do it & absolutely don't have to do it - then outsource it.
  - _delirium 13y ago
    I see things other than quirky "fun" tasks like pickling beets (?!) as also a valuable part of a regular life. To me it'd be sort of weird to have a life that is made up of nothing but 1) paid work; 2) fun/relaxation/leisure; and 3) sleep. I like to do some productive things for myself, as opposed to saving all my productivity for an employer. To me, at least, part of the satisfaction of being a regular adult is that I take care of myself to some extent. I can't do everything of course (e.g., I'm no doctor), but I usually cook, clean up after myself, do laundry, sort my recyclables, sew on buttons, the usual stuff. Cooking in particular I like to do, partly because I get better at it, which means I can do things like cook for friends, and partly because I understand food better by doing it. I tend to hire people for things that are non-routine and where a specialized professional seems like they'd be much better. For example I do have someone come and clean a few times a year, because while I can generally keep things reasonably clean, a professional cleaner does it to another level. And of course I eat out sometimes, and have professionals do home repairs (that's one area people traditionally knew more about that I know virtually nothing about... I can barely use a hammer).
quaffapint 13y ago
I will say I would never hire anyone to do work I can accomplish myself - I don't care if it makes sense or not, I just couldn't do it. Why? Because I and I would say most people that hire people to take care of their lawns and clean their toilets aren't then using their time more wisely or getting that oh so amazing hour of family time they could never have. They just don't feel like doing the task.
- joelrunyon 13y ago
  > Because I and I would say most people that hire people to take care of their lawns and clean their toilets aren't then using their time more wisely or getting that oh so amazing hour of family time they could never have. They just don't feel like doing the task. This is an emotional response to the economic mindset that the article purposes. In the article - the entire point is that it doesn't matter what you do with that extra time, but if you value your time at $100/hour and you do a task that you can pay someone to do for $10/hour, it's not an efficient use of your resources. That's the economic theory - whether or not you do anything with that extra time is up to you.
  - _delirium 13y ago
    How do you value your time at $100/hour, though? If it's because you subjectively place $100 value on that hour of doing nothing, then that's fine, and it's true that you should in that case pay someone to do the hour of work. But if it's because you earn $100/hour when you're working, and therefore infer that your time is generally worth $100/hr, that is a somewhat questionable inference unless you are actually going to do paid work in that hour, i.e. you will actually incur an opportunity cost of $100 by mowing your lawn instead of doing an hour of contract work. If it's not displacing paid work, then it becomes a matter of subjective valuation of your time, which depends not only on the time, but the task and what you would do instead. In that case, you really have to place a subjective value on how much you like or dislike mowing the lawn, and how much you like or dislike what you would do instead. Since you're just displacing one kind of unpaid time for another kind of unpaid time, there's no objective economic basis for determining what the delta value between "sitting in a chair" and "mowing the lawn" is. I personally put it fairly low, because I don't mind mowing the lawn (plus it's exercise, something I'd have to find time to do anyway).
joelrunyon 13y ago
Single page article here --> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/outsource-your-way-to-success.html?hp&_r=0&pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/outsource-your-wa...
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
jacobevelyn 13y ago
What about the social and psychological impacts of doing chores for all of those old-timey reasons like "learning the value of an honest day's work"? I would say this kind of behavior has pretty big social implications that everyone seems to be glossing over.
- quaffapint 13y ago
  Totally agree. As a kid of course I hated having to do all the work I was told to do. Now I much more appreciate it and have my own son mow the lawn, etc. I see my neighbors kid not wanting to mow the lawn (and they let him) and instead plays call of duty all day. Will it make any difference - I don't know, all I can continue to rely on is my own experiences.
joshavant 13y ago
True story: I got my first industry job, out of college - at Apple - by hiring a VA to iterate through all open jobs that met a list of criteria I gave them (years experience, skills listed, etc), and submitting my resume to them.

49 points by gbvb 13y ago

At one point I hired a personal assistant through oDesk. I took this idea from Timothy Ferriss's 4-Hour Workweek, but I hired someone in the US. I wanted to get a landscaping project done (that was required by the environmental regulators in Tahoe), but I didn't have time to track down the contractors, do background checks, make sure they showed up, and finally get the regulators to sign off on the project. The contractors thought it was pretty strange to have to deal with someone in a different state, but it worked out pretty well. Our culture (at least here in the US) doesn't appreciate outsourcing day to day tasks (and I felt embarrassed telling people I had an assistant). Maybe this comes from our Protestant roots. It reminds me of an episode of Garrison Keillor's Prairie Home Companion. Some of his characters from Minnesota visit California and find out one of their relatives has a gardener, and they ask if the relative is having any health issues, because they couldn't imagine having someone do their gardening for them, unless they were severely ill. Update: The poster above mentions getting what you pay for if you pay $2 per hour in the Philippines for instance. I agree with this. I payed significantly more, but I feel as though I got my money's worth. It isn't that expensive to hire in the US if you look to lower cost areas like the Mid-west. For this project, I felt it was worth it to have someone who understood the problems of hiring and managing contractors in the US. The person I hired was a homeowner, understood what I wanted to accomplish, and did an awesome job. It turned out to be a fraction of the cost of the overall project, and was money well spent.

ghaff 13y ago
I'm not sure it's related to work ethic or religious roots but it's certainly true that there was never a particular culture in the US of service whereby even people of fairly middle-class backgrounds had servants. And this has probably carried over to modern culture whereby people probably outsource fewer tasks like grass cutting, housecleaning, and so forth than they arguably should (whatever that word means in this context). That said, a lot of people do outsource tasks like cooking--but they do so in different ways (like going to restaurants) rather than by explicitly hiring help.
- cmbaus 13y ago
  Outsourcing by eating out has become much more acceptable in the past few years, but I can remember growing up that eating out was considered a luxury. But restaurants can achieve economies a scale that are difficult to get at home, especially if you don't have a large family. In many cases, eating at a restaurant or having food delivered isn't that bad of a deal.
- veidr 13y ago
  It's a good point about eating at restauranta vs. hiring a chef; in my limited norcal experience, it cost less to have a come-and-cook chef weekdays than it did to routinely eat out, and it was substantially more awesome in several ways. Despite it costing less, though, several of my fellow Americans thought the chef was like, bourgeois, or pretentious, or something. (I would still do it, except now I have a wife who cooks, and resists my lobbying to outsource this function...)
  - netcan 13y ago
    Tell her it will free her up to spend more time on other wifely tasks.
  - beat 13y ago
    My college-age daughter LOVES to cook and finds it relaxing. I call her my "personal chef" and have basically turned over all household food stuff to her, freeing my time for other things.
- _delirium 13y ago
  Yeah, I think it definitely has a "weird things aristocratic British people do" association: job titles like au pair, chauffeur, butler, chef, governess, etc. don't seem like something that would fit into a red-blooded, down-to-earth American household. Housecleaning and grass cutting are really common to pay people for in the U.S., though. I think in the neighborhood I grew up the same large company must've had at least 20-30% of the lawns, because they basically came through with their big trailers of equipment and went house to house marching through their customer list.
- 13y ago

joelrunyon 13y ago

I got a VA from the Philippines earlier this year & it's changed my business. I spend less time doing basic research, and repeatable tasks that I can do - but is simply not a good use of my time. I finally sat down, did a few of my tasks & documented each one, step by step, creating SOPs (standard operating procedures) for each one. It was a little tedious as first, but once my VA got after it - it freed up tons of time for me (but almost more importantly - head space & energy). Most people who have bad experiences with VAs either don't have a good idea how to manage them or don't have a budget to get someone competent for the tasks they're requesting (paying people $2/hour & you'll get what you pay for). Go in with reasonable expectations, good systems & processes in place & you'll have a great experience.

dman 13y ago
what does VA mean in this context?
- charlieirish 13y ago
  Virtual Assistant
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- joelrunyon 13y ago
  Sorry - VA = virtual assistant.
  - dman 13y ago
    Thanks for sharing your experiences. I had not considered having a VA at all but am now going to give it a try.
im3w1l 13y ago
How much do you pay then?
- 13y ago

altero 13y ago

Outsourcing meals and cleaning is pretty common. Yet another economical article which discovers america. BTW: when we had first baby, we hired doula for several weeks. Very good investment.

russjhammond 13y ago

The best advantage I have found with our VA is having them listen to all the podcasts I want to listen to, summarize the articles and send me the transcript. Then I can skim in 30 seconds what use to take me 45-60 minutes to listen to. Also, I have found Odesk very helpful when our sales people ask for custom demos for clients. Instead of distracting our team I hire someone on Odesk to reskin our demo app. The best part is I know exactly how much that demo costs and like to let sales know so they can decide for their self if a demo is warranted in each situation. As for personal tasks, I love using the concierge service attached to my credit card. Just recently I had them research all the candidates up for local election for me, find out how to return a jacket I bought on a business trip across the country, and suggest some recipes for a halloween party. I have a running list of my favorite things I have sent to my concierge on Quora: https://www.quora.com/Concierge-Services/What-are-some-good-uses-for-a-credit-cards-concierge-service https://www.quora.com/Concierge-Services/What-are-some-good-... I also have a running list on my blog: http://delegnation.com/ http://delegnation.com/ A presentation I did at a Product Camp recently about using outsourcing to support product management: http://www.slideshare.net/russjhammond/product-camp-nashville-92813 http://www.slideshare.net/russjhammond/product-camp-nashvill...

joelrunyon 13y ago
For the podcasts - have you tried listening to them at 1.5x or 2x speed? I started doing that & it's saved me tons of time & I can get through way more content (doesn't sound that weird once you get used to it either). On your credit card - is that the Amex Platinum? I have a friend that uses them as a personal assistant basically.
- russjhammond 13y ago
  I do use the 1.5x feature but save that for the podcasts I actually listen to. By reading the transcripts I can "monitor" 3-5 weekly, hour long podcasts in 15 minutes. As for the card, yes I use an AMEX Platinum but believe Visa Signature and MasterCard World Elite also offer a similar service.
  - 13y ago

huherto 13y ago

sigh...If I could only outsource my HN reading I would be so much productive.

visakanv 13y ago
You do know that's a weasel statement, right?
dllthomas 13y ago
Why can't you?
- angersock 13y ago
  I for one am reluctant to entrust somebody else with posting as angersock... I don't want to dilute the brand quality, the meticulous posting, the careful planning and forethought that goes into each bespoke communique. For some things, if you want them done right, you have to do them yourself.
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    I doubt actually posting is the bulk of the time you spend on HN, though. Paying someone to filter a bit could make sense. Possibly.

hajderr 13y ago

Talk about degrading family value. Doing chores is beneficial and a nice way of taking a break.

joelrunyon 13y ago
I don't think you read the whole article or you would have caught this: > (Oddly, it’s perfectly fine if leisure time includes those inefficient D.I.Y. household tasks that some people find rewarding and fun, like pickling beets or knitting.) If you find it fun - do it. If not, outsource it as fast as possible.
- quaffapint 13y ago
  So if it's not fun, don't do it. Does that sound like a healthy philosophy to pass down?
  - joelrunyon 13y ago
    How bout: If you want to or have to do it - do it. If you don't want to do it & absolutely don't have to do it - then outsource it.
- _delirium 13y ago
  I see things other than quirky "fun" tasks like pickling beets (?!) as also a valuable part of a regular life. To me it'd be sort of weird to have a life that is made up of nothing but 1) paid work; 2) fun/relaxation/leisure; and 3) sleep. I like to do some productive things for myself, as opposed to saving all my productivity for an employer. To me, at least, part of the satisfaction of being a regular adult is that I take care of myself to some extent. I can't do everything of course (e.g., I'm no doctor), but I usually cook, clean up after myself, do laundry, sort my recyclables, sew on buttons, the usual stuff. Cooking in particular I like to do, partly because I get better at it, which means I can do things like cook for friends, and partly because I understand food better by doing it. I tend to hire people for things that are non-routine and where a specialized professional seems like they'd be much better. For example I do have someone come and clean a few times a year, because while I can generally keep things reasonably clean, a professional cleaner does it to another level. And of course I eat out sometimes, and have professionals do home repairs (that's one area people traditionally knew more about that I know virtually nothing about... I can barely use a hammer).

quaffapint 13y ago

I will say I would never hire anyone to do work I can accomplish myself - I don't care if it makes sense or not, I just couldn't do it. Why? Because I and I would say most people that hire people to take care of their lawns and clean their toilets aren't then using their time more wisely or getting that oh so amazing hour of family time they could never have. They just don't feel like doing the task.

joelrunyon 13y ago
> Because I and I would say most people that hire people to take care of their lawns and clean their toilets aren't then using their time more wisely or getting that oh so amazing hour of family time they could never have. They just don't feel like doing the task. This is an emotional response to the economic mindset that the article purposes. In the article - the entire point is that it doesn't matter what you do with that extra time, but if you value your time at $100/hour and you do a task that you can pay someone to do for $10/hour, it's not an efficient use of your resources. That's the economic theory - whether or not you do anything with that extra time is up to you.
- _delirium 13y ago
  How do you value your time at $100/hour, though? If it's because you subjectively place $100 value on that hour of doing nothing, then that's fine, and it's true that you should in that case pay someone to do the hour of work. But if it's because you earn $100/hour when you're working, and therefore infer that your time is generally worth $100/hr, that is a somewhat questionable inference unless you are actually going to do paid work in that hour, i.e. you will actually incur an opportunity cost of $100 by mowing your lawn instead of doing an hour of contract work. If it's not displacing paid work, then it becomes a matter of subjective valuation of your time, which depends not only on the time, but the task and what you would do instead. In that case, you really have to place a subjective value on how much you like or dislike mowing the lawn, and how much you like or dislike what you would do instead. Since you're just displacing one kind of unpaid time for another kind of unpaid time, there's no objective economic basis for determining what the delta value between "sitting in a chair" and "mowing the lawn" is. I personally put it fairly low, because I don't mind mowing the lawn (plus it's exercise, something I'd have to find time to do anyway).

joelrunyon 13y ago

Single page article here --> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/outsource-your-way-to-success.html?hp&_r=0&pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/magazine/outsource-your-wa...

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

jacobevelyn 13y ago

What about the social and psychological impacts of doing chores for all of those old-timey reasons like "learning the value of an honest day's work"? I would say this kind of behavior has pretty big social implications that everyone seems to be glossing over.

quaffapint 13y ago
Totally agree. As a kid of course I hated having to do all the work I was told to do. Now I much more appreciate it and have my own son mow the lawn, etc. I see my neighbors kid not wanting to mow the lawn (and they let him) and instead plays call of duty all day. Will it make any difference - I don't know, all I can continue to rely on is my own experiences.

joshavant 13y ago

True story: I got my first industry job, out of college - at Apple - by hiring a VA to iterate through all open jobs that met a list of criteria I gave them (years experience, skills listed, etc), and submitting my resume to them.