6 ms·

Serious question: what happens if say Wikileaks or Snowden or the next important whistleblower uses this service, and then the head of DHS, FBI, DOJ, etc (not a

by devx 13y ago

Serious question: what happens if say Wikileaks or Snowden or the next important whistleblower uses this service, and then the head of DHS, FBI, DOJ, etc (not a Court) "gives a call" to Google? Will Google "protect their free expression", or comply with the order within hours, like Amazon did [1]? Google may have great lawyers and a lot of money, but what if they tell them "hey, you know that tax-free money you're sending to the Bermuda [2]? Yeah, FTC will be knocking on your door tomorrow to ask you about that". So I guess what I want to know is if Google will actually stand their ground and protect their users till the end by doing the right thing, or they'll "compromise" if the potential cost to their business is too great. Maybe in the past it was easy to believe Google would actually do the right thing, but it's becoming increasingly harder to believe that. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/media/2010/dec/01/wikileaks-website-cables-servers-amazon http://www.theguardian.com/media/2010/dec/01/wikileaks-websi... [2] http://www.cnbc.com/id/101104483 http://www.cnbc.com/id/101104483

res0nat0r 13y ago
Probably handle the TOS violation/comply with the law just like Amazon did with Wikileaks previously.
packetslave 13y ago
Google has been pretty explicit about the circumstances in which it will hand user data over to governments or law enforcement. Even if it is required to be done in secret (e.g. a NSL or FISA request), it still requires a valid court order or other legal process. http://www.google.com/transparencyreport/userdatarequests http://www.google.com/transparencyreport/userdatarequests If you think any U.S.-based company is able to do better, I'd love to hear how.
- chadwickthebold 13y ago
  They could get attempt to fight the court orders in a court more open than the FISC? I'm not sure how this could practically be accomplished, but it would be a good first step towards protecting the rights of users, instead of blindly complying with court orders that Google would hopefully have some moral problems with. I always find it so fascinating that tech giants will lobby for increased access to their services worldwide, but not more secure services here at home.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    No they can't. They can fight the court order in FISC, but once the FISC process resolves, they will be required by law to honor the terms of the court order; they could then fight in other courts --- as I understand them to be doing to some extent --- but that would be a post-facto effort.
- workhere-io 13y ago
  Snowden mentioned Google as one of the companies that provides direct access to its backend to NSA - meaning that NSA can access information on Google users without needing a court order. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLrPquNK1Mc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLrPquNK1Mc
  - moultano 13y ago
    Which Google repeatedly vehemently denied. >I’m not sure I can say this more clearly: we’re not in cahoots with the NSA and there’s is no government program that Google participates in that allows the kind of access that the media originally reported. Note that I say "originally" because you'll see that many of those original sources corrected their articles after it became clear that the PRISM slides were not accurate. Now, what does happen is that we get specific requests from the government for user data. We review each of those requests and push back when the request is overly broad or doesn't follow the correct process. There is no free-for-all, no direct access, no indirect access, no back door, no drop box. We’re not in the business of lying and we’re absolutely telling the truth about all of this. Our business depends on the trust of our users. And I’m an executive officer of a large publicly traded company, so lying to the public wouldn’t be the greatest career move. http://www.theguardian.com/technology/blog/2013/jun/19/google-chief-legal-officer-david-drummond-live-q-and-a http://www.theguardian.com/technology/blog/2013/jun/19/googl... http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2013/06/what.html http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2013/06/what.html
    - workhere-io 13y ago
      Which Google repeatedly vehemently denied. Probably because they're forced to do so by the authorities, like Lavebit was. So it becomes a question of who you are going to trust: Snowden (who has nothing to gain by lying) or Google (who is required by law to lie about it and risks losing a lot of money if their customers lose faith in them). I know who I trust in this case.
      - DannyBee 13y ago
        Can you please state what law you believe would force them to lie about it? As i've pointed out in a few discussions, the law does not (and generally cannot constitutionally) require you to actively lie about something (IE compelled inaccurate speech). It can require you to not speak about something, compel you to speak truthful things (as a disclosure or otherwise), and require you to not tell someone something, but cannot require you to tell them something that is a lie. AFAIK, Lavabit was forced to not disclose something to their customers, which fits in with what I said. There are actually fairly important distinctions, legally, between different types of speech, and important legal distinctions between compelled speech and lack of disclosure. So you can't really paint all of these things with the same brush. (note: The above is about the US, someone asked me privately, and I have no idea, about other countries)

by devx 13y ago

res0nat0r 13y ago

Probably handle the TOS violation/comply with the law just like Amazon did with Wikileaks previously.

packetslave 13y ago

Google has been pretty explicit about the circumstances in which it will hand user data over to governments or law enforcement. Even if it is required to be done in secret (e.g. a NSL or FISA request), it still requires a valid court order or other legal process. http://www.google.com/transparencyreport/userdatarequests http://www.google.com/transparencyreport/userdatarequests If you think any U.S.-based company is able to do better, I'd love to hear how.

chadwickthebold 13y ago
They could get attempt to fight the court orders in a court more open than the FISC? I'm not sure how this could practically be accomplished, but it would be a good first step towards protecting the rights of users, instead of blindly complying with court orders that Google would hopefully have some moral problems with. I always find it so fascinating that tech giants will lobby for increased access to their services worldwide, but not more secure services here at home.
- tptacek 13y ago
  No they can't. They can fight the court order in FISC, but once the FISC process resolves, they will be required by law to honor the terms of the court order; they could then fight in other courts --- as I understand them to be doing to some extent --- but that would be a post-facto effort.
workhere-io 13y ago
Snowden mentioned Google as one of the companies that provides direct access to its backend to NSA - meaning that NSA can access information on Google users without needing a court order. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLrPquNK1Mc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLrPquNK1Mc
- moultano 13y ago
  Which Google repeatedly vehemently denied. >I’m not sure I can say this more clearly: we’re not in cahoots with the NSA and there’s is no government program that Google participates in that allows the kind of access that the media originally reported. Note that I say "originally" because you'll see that many of those original sources corrected their articles after it became clear that the PRISM slides were not accurate. Now, what does happen is that we get specific requests from the government for user data. We review each of those requests and push back when the request is overly broad or doesn't follow the correct process. There is no free-for-all, no direct access, no indirect access, no back door, no drop box. We’re not in the business of lying and we’re absolutely telling the truth about all of this. Our business depends on the trust of our users. And I’m an executive officer of a large publicly traded company, so lying to the public wouldn’t be the greatest career move. http://www.theguardian.com/technology/blog/2013/jun/19/google-chief-legal-officer-david-drummond-live-q-and-a http://www.theguardian.com/technology/blog/2013/jun/19/googl... http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2013/06/what.html http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2013/06/what.html
  - workhere-io 13y ago
    Which Google repeatedly vehemently denied. Probably because they're forced to do so by the authorities, like Lavebit was. So it becomes a question of who you are going to trust: Snowden (who has nothing to gain by lying) or Google (who is required by law to lie about it and risks losing a lot of money if their customers lose faith in them). I know who I trust in this case.
    - DannyBee 13y ago
      Can you please state what law you believe would force them to lie about it? As i've pointed out in a few discussions, the law does not (and generally cannot constitutionally) require you to actively lie about something (IE compelled inaccurate speech). It can require you to not speak about something, compel you to speak truthful things (as a disclosure or otherwise), and require you to not tell someone something, but cannot require you to tell them something that is a lie. AFAIK, Lavabit was forced to not disclose something to their customers, which fits in with what I said. There are actually fairly important distinctions, legally, between different types of speech, and important legal distinctions between compelled speech and lack of disclosure. So you can't really paint all of these things with the same brush. (note: The above is about the US, someone asked me privately, and I have no idea, about other countries)