7 ms·

A 23andMe Patent

46 points by maverick2 13y ago

r0h1n 13y ago
The headline is quite misleading. From the post, the patent appears to be about calculating and showing the traits children are likely to inherit from their parents, not a way to "design" them.
- Kliment 13y ago
  That's what the technology is doing, but the patent covers more than that. Typical immoral assheadery.
  - VMG 13y ago
    Are you taking offense to the intellectual property issue or the ability to influence the genetics of your offspring?
    - netcan 13y ago
      I don't know about the parent, but to me the combination definitely sounds like "immoral assheadery." These guys seem to have a lot of patents#. Some of them seem (to me) like something you shouldn't be able to patent.^ It's a little creepy (but very easy) to imagine a future where most (rich) children are engineered by selectively accepting zygotes, sperms/eggs or actually creating them. I don't know much about the economics or laws of IP, but I would really prefer that all the critical technology and data needed for engineering babies be treated as scientific discovery and available publicly. #https://www.google.com/search?num=100&safe=off&biw=1024&bih=579&tbm=pts&q=23andMe&oq=23andMe&gs_l=serp.3..0l6j0i10j0l3.3373.3373.0.4067.1.1.0.0.0.0.90.90.1.1.0....0...1c.2.27.serp..0.1.90.q7gxUhQ3zog https://www.google.com/search?num=100&safe=off&biw=1024&bih=... ^https://www.google.ie/patents/US8510057?dq=23andMe&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2ThNUqTODcGQhQfbnIBY&ved=0CGEQ6AEwBQ https://www.google.ie/patents/US8510057?dq=23andMe&hl=en&sa=...
    - Kliment 13y ago
      I'm taking offense to the subject matter being patentable at all.
- jonahx 13y ago
  I think this is true, but wow that article is such an impressive fireworks display of abstract optimistic language and marketing-ese that I have only a shadow of an idea of what they actually do -- as I'm sure was intended.
  - r0h1n 13y ago
    You're possibly right. But I don't see it as following from the linked post.
- ostrakon 13y ago
  If a couple produces 50 zygotes togather, and the mother and father test all of them, and pick the one that sounds like it has the most appealing traits that a couple might envision together, and discard the rest, would that count as "design"? This process sounds like it's half a step away from that. The half-step being that they only mention testing the parents, and then the process permits a degree of hypothesizing about possible children. Meanwhile, how hard would it be to test an embryo in utero, and then make a shallow, superficial decision about the pregnancy? The process is practical and ethical, when considering it's utility for assessing the risk of inherited, incurable diseases tied to varying combinations of dominant or recessive genes, but it's a flimsy assumption that it will solely be used for only those scenarios. There will be couples with known risk factors, who will want to roll the dice and try anyway, because they love eachother and want a family, and then they check their pregnancy in utero for things like downs syndrome. But then, if you have the options in front of you, why not check out other characteristics too? And then, if couple A was allowed to do that, and this is a business, after all... Why not couple B? This couple who has no life threatening conditions or genetic combinations, but has the money, and the confidentialitiy of protected health information laws shrouding their decisions in secrecy. In 20 years, don't be surprised when a certain cross-section of humanity suddenly looks strikingly different, but without any obvious explanation.
  - Digit-Al 13y ago
    I'm not sure I see this happening to any great degree. We have had the ability to know the sex of babies in advance for decades, and there are still many parents who prefer to leave it as a surprise. If there are still so many people who don't even want to know the gender of their baby before it is born, how many are going to want to make any kind of changes to it. Also, there are still a great many people who are very suspicious of any new medical technology and would not want to take any risks when it comes to a child.
    - sp332 13y ago
      "Many" is meaningless. There will also be "many" who will do exactly this as soon as possible. It's already possible to run certain tests during pregnancy, and it's legal to have an abortion based on the test results. One of my friends in high school was pre-nataly diagnosed with spina bifida and the doctor recommended an abortion.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
captainmuon 13y ago
I like the little image that seems to say: "Looking to start a family? Beware, your child might be a redhead! Calculate your risk now!" (Please, if someone with red hair reads this, no offense :-))
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
binarymax 13y ago
"You want to give your child the very best start...Keep in mind this child is still you, simply the best of you." - Gattaca
- Filligree 13y ago
  Yep. And what's so bad about that?
  - paganel 13y ago
    You're right, we need the best from among us to build the brave new world.
    - jarman 13y ago
      Brave new world castes where created by inducing birth defects, not avoiding them
  - functional_test 13y ago
    You should probably watch Gattaca - the answer to your question is pretty much the whole point of that film. Or if you don't want to watch, at least to read the first two paragraphs of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gattaca http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gattaca.
    - PeterisP 13y ago
      Watching Gattaca is very recommended to everyone. It raises many important questions on how to properly and ethically handle genetic improvements in society, but in my opinion it doesn't at all say that the genetic improvements shouldn't be done, it simply warns about the social, political and legal issues that the society should discuss and solve alongside with the actual biological/engineering challenges.
    - toomuchtodo 13y ago
      So, I was 15 when Gattaca came out. 15 year old me was very much "Look at the protagonist succeed against all odds! Take that cold science!". 30 year old me is much more pragmatic. The world is changing very quickly, and even though I'm still somewhat young, I know things will get harder for me as I get older (I work in the tech sector; "The Benevolent Treadmill"). I have a wife, and soon kids on the way. I need to be able to get more done in the day, concentrate more, remember more, and continue to constantly learn while competing against kids half my age. 30 year old me would select the best traits for my child(ren) in a heartbeat. I want better for them than I had, as all parents do.
zimbatm 13y ago
In the future the opposite sex will not only judge us on look and wealth but also on genetic material. We're leaving DNA traces everywhere. Once the DNA samplers become small enough it's just a matter of time before an "app" that does that exists. Welcome to the future :)
- klipt 13y ago
  Looks are basically a proxy for genetic material.
- xerophtye 13y ago
  I think there was some anime where that actually happened :P cliques were based on genes! The coolest girl had the best DNA! Oh and another girl was showing off her speed, so the popular girl remarked "Speed is a dominant trait of lower mammals." imagine being judged for having common genetic traits...
  - dexen 13y ago
    I believe it was `Geneshaft' [0], by Bandai. It mixes mecha with social dynamics of genetics and gender disparity. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneshaft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneshaft
    - xerophtye 13y ago
      yep that's the one!! we had an anime channel (animax) on our cable briefly. So saw the first episode of this show back then. (Got introduced to ranma 1/2 and inuyasha as well!)
- paganel 13y ago
  > We're leaving DNA traces everywhere. There's a scene from the movie Gattaca where Ethan Hawke is cleaning everything from his desk and keyboard in order not to leave any "DNA traces". First saw that film 10+ years ago but it has always stuck with me.
- ourmandave 13y ago
xerophtye 13y ago
Btw why is everyone going on about genetic engineered kids? This company only lets you get your genetic data and the potential genetic make up of your offspring. It doesn't exactly let you HAVE a baby with those genetic traits. Or am i missing something?
- stormbrew 13y ago
  The patent includes more than that. It also includes using the process against a pool of potential donors to choose the highest likelihood of a 'desirable' outcome in terms of the child's genetics. It's not quite Gattaca-style selection, but it is a way to 'design' your child with a high margin of error.
  - xerophtye 13y ago
    Isn't that just the process of finding the best mate based on genetic info? that is so not designing your child :/ So basically if it is worded as you say it is, then if a company figures out the actual designing part, they can't be sued by these guys. Because the selection they patent is between different donors... they cant do anything with a pre-selected donor.
warpech 13y ago
Is the "Don't be evil" motto still valid at all?
polskibus 13y ago
So they applied statistics to information about genes and received patent on it? I can get someone else than 23andMe analyze my genes, and he can do similar analysis. I really like 23andMe's product, although I dont like the idea of my genetic information being stored outside my country (different than US). I hope the patent itself isn't as broad as they are painting it, statistical methods (algorithms) should never be a part of patent - they are too generic and based on mathematics.
DanBC 13y ago
> The company never pursued the concepts discussed in the patent beyond our Family Traits Inheritance Calculator, nor do we have any plans to do so. Isn't this a direct violation of the principles of patents? A patent gives you protection to work on an invention, so that you have a monopoly to sell that invention and thus cover the costs of developing it. But here they have the patent, thus preventing anyone else selling the invention, but they are not selling the invention themselves. I'm interested about law. (Not saying this is relevant to 23&me.) Can you patent a process for an illegal action? So, a business process that enables tax evasion (not avoidance)?
- ourmandave 13y ago
  ...nor do we have any plans to do so. Until such time as there's a new owner or we're bought by Evil Co., etc. Every time I read a best intentions phrase like that it reminds me of the company that promised, "Never to share your email with anyone. Ever." Until they went bankrupt and one of the assets sold off was their customer database.
  - CaptainZapp 13y ago
    reminds me of the company that promised, "Never to share your email with anyone. Ever." Well, as it turns out there is not even a need to go bankrupt in order to share all your emails with impunity.
- PeterisP 13y ago
  Having a patent doesn't force you to make or sell the product - there are a gazillion patents of things that turn out to be impractical because the problem is too narrow or there is another, better solution. So no, there aren't any direct consequences of that, they have disclosed the "invention" in the actual patent text, and after patent expiry everybody will be able to use that patent text for their products if they wish so.
_mulder_ 13y ago
Has anyone used the 23andMe service? I'd like to know how accurate the results are. Can they say you definitely carry a gene for diabetes or lactose intolerance, for example, or do they just say you're at a higher chance of developing this? The website example given for carrier diseases looks so vague it's not worth bothering with ("You are a carrier of one or more infected conditions"... great, which ones!) If they can give me a list of things I need to be mindful of in the future and, more importantly, why, I'd happily pay $99 for that. I.e; you've got this and that gene which leaves you susceptible to this condition which may lead to heart disease, etc. and we're %xx certain. Does anyone have any experience of this kind of thing?
- raphman 13y ago
  No personal experience but someone blogged (in German, unfortunately) recently about a bug in 23andMe's analysis algorithm that resulted in him being told that he was terminally ill. He spent a lot of time learning everything about the purported gene malfunction, found the bug in 23andMe's assumptions and got it fixed upstream. Certainly not a nice experience. [1] http://www.ctrl-verlust.net/23andme-wie-ich-fur-todkrank-erklart-wurde-und-mich-wieder-gesund-debuggte/ http://www.ctrl-verlust.net/23andme-wie-ich-fur-todkrank-erk...
- imaffett 13y ago
  Hey _mulder_ I have an account - for me it was worth it. It confirmed some "suspicions" I had about some of my families genetic predisposition. It can show inherited conditions, and what genes you have (maybe 1 of the 4 markers for a condition). They do show % certainty, and then they also show your chance of certain health risks vs the national average. I'd be happy to explain more - I'll admit I haven't looked into all the results (or try to understand them), but I was happy with the $99 cost.
Tichy 13y ago
What exactly did they patent? Surely calculating the odds of inherited traits was not invented by 23andMe?

46 points by maverick2 13y ago

r0h1n 13y ago

The headline is quite misleading. From the post, the patent appears to be about calculating and showing the traits children are likely to inherit from their parents, not a way to "design" them.

Kliment 13y ago
That's what the technology is doing, but the patent covers more than that. Typical immoral assheadery.
- VMG 13y ago
  Are you taking offense to the intellectual property issue or the ability to influence the genetics of your offspring?
  - netcan 13y ago
    I don't know about the parent, but to me the combination definitely sounds like "immoral assheadery." These guys seem to have a lot of patents#. Some of them seem (to me) like something you shouldn't be able to patent.^ It's a little creepy (but very easy) to imagine a future where most (rich) children are engineered by selectively accepting zygotes, sperms/eggs or actually creating them. I don't know much about the economics or laws of IP, but I would really prefer that all the critical technology and data needed for engineering babies be treated as scientific discovery and available publicly. #https://www.google.com/search?num=100&safe=off&biw=1024&bih=579&tbm=pts&q=23andMe&oq=23andMe&gs_l=serp.3..0l6j0i10j0l3.3373.3373.0.4067.1.1.0.0.0.0.90.90.1.1.0....0...1c.2.27.serp..0.1.90.q7gxUhQ3zog https://www.google.com/search?num=100&safe=off&biw=1024&bih=... ^https://www.google.ie/patents/US8510057?dq=23andMe&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2ThNUqTODcGQhQfbnIBY&ved=0CGEQ6AEwBQ https://www.google.ie/patents/US8510057?dq=23andMe&hl=en&sa=...
  - Kliment 13y ago
    I'm taking offense to the subject matter being patentable at all.
jonahx 13y ago
I think this is true, but wow that article is such an impressive fireworks display of abstract optimistic language and marketing-ese that I have only a shadow of an idea of what they actually do -- as I'm sure was intended.
- r0h1n 13y ago
  You're possibly right. But I don't see it as following from the linked post.
ostrakon 13y ago
If a couple produces 50 zygotes togather, and the mother and father test all of them, and pick the one that sounds like it has the most appealing traits that a couple might envision together, and discard the rest, would that count as "design"? This process sounds like it's half a step away from that. The half-step being that they only mention testing the parents, and then the process permits a degree of hypothesizing about possible children. Meanwhile, how hard would it be to test an embryo in utero, and then make a shallow, superficial decision about the pregnancy? The process is practical and ethical, when considering it's utility for assessing the risk of inherited, incurable diseases tied to varying combinations of dominant or recessive genes, but it's a flimsy assumption that it will solely be used for only those scenarios. There will be couples with known risk factors, who will want to roll the dice and try anyway, because they love eachother and want a family, and then they check their pregnancy in utero for things like downs syndrome. But then, if you have the options in front of you, why not check out other characteristics too? And then, if couple A was allowed to do that, and this is a business, after all... Why not couple B? This couple who has no life threatening conditions or genetic combinations, but has the money, and the confidentialitiy of protected health information laws shrouding their decisions in secrecy. In 20 years, don't be surprised when a certain cross-section of humanity suddenly looks strikingly different, but without any obvious explanation.
- Digit-Al 13y ago
  I'm not sure I see this happening to any great degree. We have had the ability to know the sex of babies in advance for decades, and there are still many parents who prefer to leave it as a surprise. If there are still so many people who don't even want to know the gender of their baby before it is born, how many are going to want to make any kind of changes to it. Also, there are still a great many people who are very suspicious of any new medical technology and would not want to take any risks when it comes to a child.
  - sp332 13y ago
    "Many" is meaningless. There will also be "many" who will do exactly this as soon as possible. It's already possible to run certain tests during pregnancy, and it's legal to have an abortion based on the test results. One of my friends in high school was pre-nataly diagnosed with spina bifida and the doctor recommended an abortion.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

captainmuon 13y ago

I like the little image that seems to say: "Looking to start a family? Beware, your child might be a redhead! Calculate your risk now!" (Please, if someone with red hair reads this, no offense :-))

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

binarymax 13y ago

"You want to give your child the very best start...Keep in mind this child is still you, simply the best of you." - Gattaca

Filligree 13y ago
Yep. And what's so bad about that?
- paganel 13y ago
  You're right, we need the best from among us to build the brave new world.
  - jarman 13y ago
    Brave new world castes where created by inducing birth defects, not avoiding them
- functional_test 13y ago
  You should probably watch Gattaca - the answer to your question is pretty much the whole point of that film. Or if you don't want to watch, at least to read the first two paragraphs of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gattaca http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gattaca.
  - PeterisP 13y ago
    Watching Gattaca is very recommended to everyone. It raises many important questions on how to properly and ethically handle genetic improvements in society, but in my opinion it doesn't at all say that the genetic improvements shouldn't be done, it simply warns about the social, political and legal issues that the society should discuss and solve alongside with the actual biological/engineering challenges.
  - toomuchtodo 13y ago
    So, I was 15 when Gattaca came out. 15 year old me was very much "Look at the protagonist succeed against all odds! Take that cold science!". 30 year old me is much more pragmatic. The world is changing very quickly, and even though I'm still somewhat young, I know things will get harder for me as I get older (I work in the tech sector; "The Benevolent Treadmill"). I have a wife, and soon kids on the way. I need to be able to get more done in the day, concentrate more, remember more, and continue to constantly learn while competing against kids half my age. 30 year old me would select the best traits for my child(ren) in a heartbeat. I want better for them than I had, as all parents do.

zimbatm 13y ago

In the future the opposite sex will not only judge us on look and wealth but also on genetic material. We're leaving DNA traces everywhere. Once the DNA samplers become small enough it's just a matter of time before an "app" that does that exists. Welcome to the future :)

klipt 13y ago
Looks are basically a proxy for genetic material.
xerophtye 13y ago
I think there was some anime where that actually happened :P cliques were based on genes! The coolest girl had the best DNA! Oh and another girl was showing off her speed, so the popular girl remarked "Speed is a dominant trait of lower mammals." imagine being judged for having common genetic traits...
- dexen 13y ago
  I believe it was `Geneshaft' [0], by Bandai. It mixes mecha with social dynamics of genetics and gender disparity. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneshaft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneshaft
  - xerophtye 13y ago
    yep that's the one!! we had an anime channel (animax) on our cable briefly. So saw the first episode of this show back then. (Got introduced to ranma 1/2 and inuyasha as well!)
paganel 13y ago
> We're leaving DNA traces everywhere. There's a scene from the movie Gattaca where Ethan Hawke is cleaning everything from his desk and keyboard in order not to leave any "DNA traces". First saw that film 10+ years ago but it has always stuck with me.
ourmandave 13y ago

xerophtye 13y ago

Btw why is everyone going on about genetic engineered kids? This company only lets you get your genetic data and the potential genetic make up of your offspring. It doesn't exactly let you HAVE a baby with those genetic traits. Or am i missing something?

stormbrew 13y ago
The patent includes more than that. It also includes using the process against a pool of potential donors to choose the highest likelihood of a 'desirable' outcome in terms of the child's genetics. It's not quite Gattaca-style selection, but it is a way to 'design' your child with a high margin of error.
- xerophtye 13y ago
  Isn't that just the process of finding the best mate based on genetic info? that is so not designing your child :/ So basically if it is worded as you say it is, then if a company figures out the actual designing part, they can't be sued by these guys. Because the selection they patent is between different donors... they cant do anything with a pre-selected donor.

warpech 13y ago

Is the "Don't be evil" motto still valid at all?

polskibus 13y ago

So they applied statistics to information about genes and received patent on it? I can get someone else than 23andMe analyze my genes, and he can do similar analysis. I really like 23andMe's product, although I dont like the idea of my genetic information being stored outside my country (different than US). I hope the patent itself isn't as broad as they are painting it, statistical methods (algorithms) should never be a part of patent - they are too generic and based on mathematics.

DanBC 13y ago

> The company never pursued the concepts discussed in the patent beyond our Family Traits Inheritance Calculator, nor do we have any plans to do so. Isn't this a direct violation of the principles of patents? A patent gives you protection to work on an invention, so that you have a monopoly to sell that invention and thus cover the costs of developing it. But here they have the patent, thus preventing anyone else selling the invention, but they are not selling the invention themselves. I'm interested about law. (Not saying this is relevant to 23&me.) Can you patent a process for an illegal action? So, a business process that enables tax evasion (not avoidance)?

ourmandave 13y ago
...nor do we have any plans to do so. Until such time as there's a new owner or we're bought by Evil Co., etc. Every time I read a best intentions phrase like that it reminds me of the company that promised, "Never to share your email with anyone. Ever." Until they went bankrupt and one of the assets sold off was their customer database.
- CaptainZapp 13y ago
  reminds me of the company that promised, "Never to share your email with anyone. Ever." Well, as it turns out there is not even a need to go bankrupt in order to share all your emails with impunity.
PeterisP 13y ago
Having a patent doesn't force you to make or sell the product - there are a gazillion patents of things that turn out to be impractical because the problem is too narrow or there is another, better solution. So no, there aren't any direct consequences of that, they have disclosed the "invention" in the actual patent text, and after patent expiry everybody will be able to use that patent text for their products if they wish so.

_mulder_ 13y ago

Has anyone used the 23andMe service? I'd like to know how accurate the results are. Can they say you definitely carry a gene for diabetes or lactose intolerance, for example, or do they just say you're at a higher chance of developing this? The website example given for carrier diseases looks so vague it's not worth bothering with ("You are a carrier of one or more infected conditions"... great, which ones!) If they can give me a list of things I need to be mindful of in the future and, more importantly, why, I'd happily pay $99 for that. I.e; you've got this and that gene which leaves you susceptible to this condition which may lead to heart disease, etc. and we're %xx certain. Does anyone have any experience of this kind of thing?

raphman 13y ago
No personal experience but someone blogged (in German, unfortunately) recently about a bug in 23andMe's analysis algorithm that resulted in him being told that he was terminally ill. He spent a lot of time learning everything about the purported gene malfunction, found the bug in 23andMe's assumptions and got it fixed upstream. Certainly not a nice experience. [1] http://www.ctrl-verlust.net/23andme-wie-ich-fur-todkrank-erklart-wurde-und-mich-wieder-gesund-debuggte/ http://www.ctrl-verlust.net/23andme-wie-ich-fur-todkrank-erk...
imaffett 13y ago
Hey _mulder_ I have an account - for me it was worth it. It confirmed some "suspicions" I had about some of my families genetic predisposition. It can show inherited conditions, and what genes you have (maybe 1 of the 4 markers for a condition). They do show % certainty, and then they also show your chance of certain health risks vs the national average. I'd be happy to explain more - I'll admit I haven't looked into all the results (or try to understand them), but I was happy with the $99 cost.

Tichy 13y ago

What exactly did they patent? Surely calculating the odds of inherited traits was not invented by 23andMe?