8 ms·

They don't allow men in because they're sexist. There is not some special exemption for some classes of people, there are no pigs that are more equal than other

by kanja 13y ago

They don't allow men in because they're sexist. There is not some special exemption for some classes of people, there are no pigs that are more equal than others. They feel the sexism is acceptable given the circumstances. In a world where college enrollment for women is significantly higher than enrollment for men I don't agree, and I think many others don't agree either.

kaonashi 13y ago
This kind of comment that just plain ignores the fact that women's representation in tech is abysmal is rather tiresome. It's discriminatory, it's not sexist.
- gametheoretic 13y ago
  Uh, perhaps the above commenter "ignores" said disproportionality because it's so beyond platitudinal that it doesn't bear repeating but rather is taken as a given starting point for any discussion on the matter.
- benologist 13y ago
  Clearly a draft should be imposed to force under-represented demographics into careers they chose not to have. Or for true equality we should all just be assigned our roles!
  - MartinCron 13y ago
    Or, barring that, groups of people should try to help under-represented demographics into careers from which they have been excluded. Sounds radical, I know.
    - benologist 13y ago
      Men stopped telling women what they can and can't be when they grow up decades ago. Do you know whose role was to stay at home, keep her man happy, dinner cooked, and the house spotless? Grandmothers. Is there anyone in tech who expects that from a woman?
      - Udo 13y ago
        > Men stopped telling women what they can and can't be when they grow up decades ago. It's not that simple. As a society, we exert a lot of pressure on individuals in order to force them into stereotypes, categories that are socially approved. The pressure to conform is still especially intense on women and there are many social mechanisms through which this pressure is exerted. I also get the feeling that pressure has increased in recent decades as we're moving back to a more conservative society. "Men" may thankfully have stopped telling women what they can be, but women are still heavily influenced by our society's collective expectations. For example, female nerds are even more strongly seen as negative than their male counter parts. Both sexes have developed a defensive subtype to combat this with some success: the sporty and extroverted brogrammer in the men camp, and the 9-5 no-nonsense "programming is not my hobby" female software developer. So I think it's fair to say that statistically we're telling both men and women exactly what they can and can't be when they grow up - and I believe men still have an easier time opting out of that.
      - MartinCron 13y ago
        Really? Just this week I heard a story of boys in a programming class telling the one girl to "make me a sandwich". Programs like this one are just saying "put down the damn sandwich fixings and go kick ass". Being opposed to them, at this point, seems incomprehensible to me.
        benologist 13y ago
        You focus on the girl being bullied as if her gender was why she got picked on - maybe you're right and the guy's a sexist asshole. Or maybe he's just an asshole and the girl was interchangeable with anyone else he might pick on because he's an asshole.
  - kaonashi 13y ago
    You're assuming the underrepresentation is due to benign preferences rather than an active hostility.
    - benologist 13y ago
      That's correct - we don't want the typical tech career or job either.
MartinCron 13y ago
They don't allow men in because they're sexist You probably really think that's a really compelling argument, don't you?
- kanja 13y ago
  A compelling argument for what? I think they have the right to be sexist. I just think it's crazy to try and brand it as something else. Just be honest.
  - rooshdi 13y ago
    Men are a majority in tech with many benefits. Women are a minority in tech with many obstacles. They're just trying to help these women overcome this disparity. Why discourage that?
    - guard-of-terra 13y ago
      Still it makes sense calling duck a duck.
    - criley2 13y ago
      He didn't try to discourage them. He accurately labelled the behavior as sexist. In a post-donglegate world where we must be forced to examine the sexual connotations of everything we do and say it shouldn't surprise that hackers callously analyze the entire situation. Yes. It's sexist. Just like affirmative action is racist[1]. People tend to think that using sexism/racism this way counterbalances the other side of it, forcefully, for a time, until it's not necessary. I'm not disagreeing with those kinds of practices or speaking ill of those who support them. But they are what they are, technically speaking. (The best kind of speaking). [1] I find it amusing that the wikipedia article on affirmative action helpfully reminds us that the practice is known as "positive discrimination" in the UK. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action
      - rooshdi 13y ago

by kanja 13y ago

kaonashi 13y ago

This kind of comment that just plain ignores the fact that women's representation in tech is abysmal is rather tiresome. It's discriminatory, it's not sexist.

gametheoretic 13y ago
Uh, perhaps the above commenter "ignores" said disproportionality because it's so beyond platitudinal that it doesn't bear repeating but rather is taken as a given starting point for any discussion on the matter.
benologist 13y ago
Clearly a draft should be imposed to force under-represented demographics into careers they chose not to have. Or for true equality we should all just be assigned our roles!
- MartinCron 13y ago
  Or, barring that, groups of people should try to help under-represented demographics into careers from which they have been excluded. Sounds radical, I know.
  - benologist 13y ago
    Men stopped telling women what they can and can't be when they grow up decades ago. Do you know whose role was to stay at home, keep her man happy, dinner cooked, and the house spotless? Grandmothers. Is there anyone in tech who expects that from a woman?
    - Udo 13y ago
      > Men stopped telling women what they can and can't be when they grow up decades ago. It's not that simple. As a society, we exert a lot of pressure on individuals in order to force them into stereotypes, categories that are socially approved. The pressure to conform is still especially intense on women and there are many social mechanisms through which this pressure is exerted. I also get the feeling that pressure has increased in recent decades as we're moving back to a more conservative society. "Men" may thankfully have stopped telling women what they can be, but women are still heavily influenced by our society's collective expectations. For example, female nerds are even more strongly seen as negative than their male counter parts. Both sexes have developed a defensive subtype to combat this with some success: the sporty and extroverted brogrammer in the men camp, and the 9-5 no-nonsense "programming is not my hobby" female software developer. So I think it's fair to say that statistically we're telling both men and women exactly what they can and can't be when they grow up - and I believe men still have an easier time opting out of that.
    - MartinCron 13y ago
      Really? Just this week I heard a story of boys in a programming class telling the one girl to "make me a sandwich". Programs like this one are just saying "put down the damn sandwich fixings and go kick ass". Being opposed to them, at this point, seems incomprehensible to me.
      - benologist 13y ago
        You focus on the girl being bullied as if her gender was why she got picked on - maybe you're right and the guy's a sexist asshole. Or maybe he's just an asshole and the girl was interchangeable with anyone else he might pick on because he's an asshole.
- kaonashi 13y ago
  You're assuming the underrepresentation is due to benign preferences rather than an active hostility.
  - benologist 13y ago
    That's correct - we don't want the typical tech career or job either.

MartinCron 13y ago

They don't allow men in because they're sexist You probably really think that's a really compelling argument, don't you?

kanja 13y ago
A compelling argument for what? I think they have the right to be sexist. I just think it's crazy to try and brand it as something else. Just be honest.
- rooshdi 13y ago
  Men are a majority in tech with many benefits. Women are a minority in tech with many obstacles. They're just trying to help these women overcome this disparity. Why discourage that?
  - guard-of-terra 13y ago
    Still it makes sense calling duck a duck.
  - criley2 13y ago
    He didn't try to discourage them. He accurately labelled the behavior as sexist. In a post-donglegate world where we must be forced to examine the sexual connotations of everything we do and say it shouldn't surprise that hackers callously analyze the entire situation. Yes. It's sexist. Just like affirmative action is racist[1]. People tend to think that using sexism/racism this way counterbalances the other side of it, forcefully, for a time, until it's not necessary. I'm not disagreeing with those kinds of practices or speaking ill of those who support them. But they are what they are, technically speaking. (The best kind of speaking). [1] I find it amusing that the wikipedia article on affirmative action helpfully reminds us that the practice is known as "positive discrimination" in the UK. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action
    - rooshdi 13y ago