6 ms·

Back in the day when 0898 numbers existed in the UK you could make £1.50 per minute. I knew a guy who made a LOT of cash by hooking one up to a fax machine and

by jdee 13y ago

Back in the day when 0898 numbers existed in the UK you could make £1.50 per minute. I knew a guy who made a LOT of cash by hooking one up to a fax machine and then calling window companies and telling them "I'm about to go into a meeting where we are going to decide which windows to buy for a skyscraper we are building, please can you fax me your brochure immediately". He then gave them the 0898 number to fax the 200 page brochure to...

hnncl 13y ago
Very sneaky! I wish I'd thought of it!
eli 13y ago
Sounds pretty unethical.
- carleverett 13y ago
  Yeah, it's one thing to charge companies for phone calls when they were going to call you anyways, it's another thing to suggest to a company that you're interested in a bulk order, and then charge them to send you the information that you requested. That's sounds more just like theft.
  - jdee 13y ago
    You are correct. I'm pretty deeply involved with telco fraud and it's countermeasures. This is really tip of the iceberg as to what goes on. The latest scams involve making your iPhone show missed calls even though your phone didnt ring by sending it a really short call attempt. Guess what the caller ID of the missed call is? Premium rate number. The amount of people who ring back these calls is incredible. When you call the line you hear a long dial tone. You think its dialling the number but its already been answered and is charging you per minute... Again, I'm not making any representations that these things are ethical, but they absolutely go on today, and these are the only kinds of scams I feel comfortable sharing - the reality is a lot scarier.
    - sciguy77 13y ago
      Well now you have to tell us about the really scary ones!
      - jdee 13y ago
        Without going into details there are vulnerabilities that are being exploited today that are netting fraudsters millions a day and there is very little can be done to stop them. The most interesting thing you learn about these fraud teams is that it is a job to them - meaning they work 9-5.30, dont work weekends or holidays. This is industrialised fraud on an enterprise scale. If you wanted my advice: Dont trust any 2 factor authentication system that uses your mobile unless its for a large bank Dont data roam with your mobile when abroad, better still, leave your mobile at home. Before doing anything secure with your phone, call it to ensure its not been redirected Dont say anything in a call that you wouldnt want played back to you at some point in the future...
        616c 13y ago
        I do not offer to buy things often from stuff posted on HN. PLEASE WRITE A BOOK. I would most definitely buy your anecdotes, and even more for anecdotes that motivated this advice to pass of to people. Also, how did you get into the line of work you are in?
        jdee 13y ago
        Joined a startup as CTO/investor at an IVR company. Built up 4 years domain knowledge working with telephony fraud. exited a month ago as part of a $150m sale. Final anecdote. A certain attack requires the fraudster to call the target's bank and ask a few questions. For some reason in ALL of these calls there is the sound of a baby crying in the background. Our theory is that while testing the attack vector, the first time it 'worked' a baby must have been crying. The fraudsters think it works as some kind of high frequency disruption to confuse any biometric systems that are processing the call, so they play a RECORDING of a baby in the background of all subsequent calls. It reminds me of learned behaviour in animals. The pigeon stands on one leg and gets a treat. The pigeon now thinks the one legged approach is what makes the treat appear. The icing on the cake was when I got a call from a bank asking if there are any biometric systems that can detect the sound of crying babies...
- Ziomislaw 13y ago
  Like cold calling?
nwh 13y ago
I'll bite. With the original story there's some feeling of comeuppance, and it's not really a huge financial burden on the company making thousands of calls a day. In your story—illegalities aside—they're just being a complete asshole.
- jdee 13y ago
  Agreed. I didn't suggest otherwise. I'm just recounting a similar story about premium rate numbers in the UK.
- stevewillows 13y ago
  In a sense it's no different than sending false invoices to large corporations in hopes that they won't double check for a service or product.
- vidarh 13y ago
  Which is the very reason why most of the expensive premium rate numbers are now only in the 09 range and heavily regulated. You can still try doing this, but people would immediately question why you were giving them an 09 number. The remaining premium rate problem in the UK is mainly 070 numbers, which are "personal numbers" used for forwarding services, and while there are some legitimate users, most uses these days are scammers trying to confuse people to think they're cellphone numbers.
rmc 13y ago
Sounds like he committed a crime (fraud). Be careful with that tactic.
niuzeta 13y ago
very, very unethical; you should write a book.

by jdee 13y ago

hnncl 13y ago

Very sneaky! I wish I'd thought of it!

eli 13y ago

Sounds pretty unethical.

carleverett 13y ago
Yeah, it's one thing to charge companies for phone calls when they were going to call you anyways, it's another thing to suggest to a company that you're interested in a bulk order, and then charge them to send you the information that you requested. That's sounds more just like theft.
- jdee 13y ago
  You are correct. I'm pretty deeply involved with telco fraud and it's countermeasures. This is really tip of the iceberg as to what goes on. The latest scams involve making your iPhone show missed calls even though your phone didnt ring by sending it a really short call attempt. Guess what the caller ID of the missed call is? Premium rate number. The amount of people who ring back these calls is incredible. When you call the line you hear a long dial tone. You think its dialling the number but its already been answered and is charging you per minute... Again, I'm not making any representations that these things are ethical, but they absolutely go on today, and these are the only kinds of scams I feel comfortable sharing - the reality is a lot scarier.
  - sciguy77 13y ago
    Well now you have to tell us about the really scary ones!
    - jdee 13y ago
      Without going into details there are vulnerabilities that are being exploited today that are netting fraudsters millions a day and there is very little can be done to stop them. The most interesting thing you learn about these fraud teams is that it is a job to them - meaning they work 9-5.30, dont work weekends or holidays. This is industrialised fraud on an enterprise scale. If you wanted my advice: Dont trust any 2 factor authentication system that uses your mobile unless its for a large bank Dont data roam with your mobile when abroad, better still, leave your mobile at home. Before doing anything secure with your phone, call it to ensure its not been redirected Dont say anything in a call that you wouldnt want played back to you at some point in the future...
      - 616c 13y ago
        I do not offer to buy things often from stuff posted on HN. PLEASE WRITE A BOOK. I would most definitely buy your anecdotes, and even more for anecdotes that motivated this advice to pass of to people. Also, how did you get into the line of work you are in?
        jdee 13y ago
        Joined a startup as CTO/investor at an IVR company. Built up 4 years domain knowledge working with telephony fraud. exited a month ago as part of a $150m sale. Final anecdote. A certain attack requires the fraudster to call the target's bank and ask a few questions. For some reason in ALL of these calls there is the sound of a baby crying in the background. Our theory is that while testing the attack vector, the first time it 'worked' a baby must have been crying. The fraudsters think it works as some kind of high frequency disruption to confuse any biometric systems that are processing the call, so they play a RECORDING of a baby in the background of all subsequent calls. It reminds me of learned behaviour in animals. The pigeon stands on one leg and gets a treat. The pigeon now thinks the one legged approach is what makes the treat appear. The icing on the cake was when I got a call from a bank asking if there are any biometric systems that can detect the sound of crying babies...
Ziomislaw 13y ago
Like cold calling?

nwh 13y ago

I'll bite. With the original story there's some feeling of comeuppance, and it's not really a huge financial burden on the company making thousands of calls a day. In your story—illegalities aside—they're just being a complete asshole.

jdee 13y ago
Agreed. I didn't suggest otherwise. I'm just recounting a similar story about premium rate numbers in the UK.
stevewillows 13y ago
In a sense it's no different than sending false invoices to large corporations in hopes that they won't double check for a service or product.
vidarh 13y ago
Which is the very reason why most of the expensive premium rate numbers are now only in the 09 range and heavily regulated. You can still try doing this, but people would immediately question why you were giving them an 09 number. The remaining premium rate problem in the UK is mainly 070 numbers, which are "personal numbers" used for forwarding services, and while there are some legitimate users, most uses these days are scammers trying to confuse people to think they're cellphone numbers.

rmc 13y ago

Sounds like he committed a crime (fraud). Be careful with that tactic.

niuzeta 13y ago

very, very unethical; you should write a book.