5 ms·

Verified Extortion

62 points by brett 17y ago

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
buggy_code 17y ago
Are people still making money from facebook apps these days? I thought it was over a while back (and thus why the mass exodus to develop on the iPhone although apple's approval process sucks.)
- mattmaroon 17y ago
  Are you joking? The top Facebook apps make more in a month than the top iPhone apps make in a lifetime. Even mid level apps, the sort that would never make the top 25 on iTunes, make more in a year than a top 10 paid app on iTunes does. Try Googling for Zynga Revenues. The Facebook platform is orders of magnitude more profitable than iPhone. Don't mistake buzz for profitability.
  - buggy_code 17y ago
    Thanks for the tip. I can't up vote you enough. Almost tempted to create new HN accounts just to up vote you.
    - buggy_code 17y ago
      Why all the downvotes? (I don't mind downvoted, just curious about an explaination).
      - JimmyL 17y ago
        I would guess for the notion of creating another HN account to sockpuppet/additionally up-rate someone.
      - icey 17y ago
        Whenever I get downvotes, I stop to consider whether or not my comment has added to the conversation. If I think it has, and I can't figure out why I got downvoted, I just move on. Of course now I re-read all my comments right after I post them, so I tend to delete quite a few before voting happens either way.
  - pistoriusp 17y ago
    Do you have data that you could use to backup your post?
    - blader 17y ago
      http://www.google.com/search?q=zynga+revenues http://www.google.com/search?q=zynga+revenues
  - coglethorpe 17y ago
    > Zynga Don't get me started on my Mafia Wars addiction.
    - run4yourlives 17y ago
      Do you pay for that crap though?
    - elai 17y ago
      The game that can be (and is) played by a script.
      - teej 17y ago
        World of Warcraft can also be played by a script. That hasn't hurt it's profitability or popularity.
        mattmaroon 17y ago
        Does World of Warcraft still make money? I thought everyone was on the iPhone all day now ;)
  - blader 17y ago
    Matt, the more people think that Facebook apps don't make any money, the happier I think we'll both be. =)
    - mattmaroon 17y ago
      Ha, true. If it weren't broadly available information that you almost had to close your eyes to miss I'd never mention it.
- alex_c 17y ago
  Straight-up ad network banners won't make much money, but incentivized apps can pull in some serious cash.
  - mattmaroon 17y ago
    Actually, you'd be surprised on the banners too. They've gotten better. We've been seeing regular 50 cents eCPM from just 1 banner, and if we tried hard, we could probably work in another one or two without seriously degrading the user experience. That adds up fast, since the platform makes it not too hard to get to hundreds of thousands (or even millions) of pageviews a day. 1m page views per day at 50 cents eCPM is still $182k per year. Not a bad second income stream.
    - alex_c 17y ago
      50c eCPM is definitely not bad on FB (of course, it depends on a lot of factors :p) Which ad network do you use?
cellis 17y ago
As far as i see it, for media/gaming apps there are two platforms that you can (try to) make enough money to buy a small island with: facebook and iphone. Both are flooded now with competitors, and not of the stupid sort, so good luck...and await the xbox mobile!
- teej 17y ago
  I don't think Matt is "trying" to make money on the Facebook platform with games. He's already profitable and growing - http://www.bluefroggaming.com/company.php http://www.bluefroggaming.com/company.php
- mattmaroon 17y ago
  Don't count out Myspace. There's a lot of money there too, also far more than the iPhone. Google around for Playdom, for instance.
grandalf 17y ago
Why is he complaining about Facebook when all the company did was respond to user complaints about apps that behaved badly? When thousands of people got daily invites to stupid apps, something had to be done. Regardless of whether facebook had ever announced the verified apps program, the new restrictions would make sense. When you develop for a young platform (particularly a proprietary one) you should realize it may be a moving target. It's far from extortion!
- SamAtt 17y ago
  Facebook certainly could have handled things better but other than that I agree with you. It seems a little obnoxious to demand free service. Even if it was free before. If it were more money he might have a better case. But given other platforms cost thousands of dollars (Sony's Playstation program for example) I don't see $375 as that much of a hardship.
  - mattmaroon 17y ago
    You clearly didn't read the article through. I have no problem with them making money (beyond the extra few million ad impressions I generate them each day). I have a problem with the fact that it feels exactly like a Mafia-style protection payment. I guess it's ironic that the most notable game there is Mafia Wars. If they just said "everyone has to pay us $375/yr once they get over 10k installs" or something, I'd be way happier about making that payment.
    - elai 17y ago
      10k daily active users sounds more like it.
    - grandalf 17y ago
      The logic behind the fees is essentially the same as a Pigovian Tax: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax It may not be "fair" but it results in widespread modification of behavior in a socially beneficial way. Taxes on carbon fuels are not fair -- lots of firms built up huge infrastructure on narrow profit margins before such taxes were imposed -- but if you advocate a different policy what would it be? Every policy entails some "transfer" from one group to another. At least with a tax the incentive is clear and obvious moving forward, and precisely targets the specific negative externality it's intended to address.
haasted 17y ago
The article left me with a few "Facebook apps"-newbie questions. Hope someone here will be able to answer. 1. How are Facebook apps monetized? Advertising? 2. What do applications use the collected user data for? I once saw a description of the kind of access an application gets to the user's data, and it seemed a bit daunting.
- teej 17y ago
  1. Advertising + Virtual Goods (selling "items" or "currency" inside a game for power, pleasure, or status) 2. You can't really "collect" the data. Facebook's Terms state that you can't keep user data for longer than 24 hours. The original idea was that you could use their data to display demographically-relevant ads.
  - rms 17y ago
    Also affiliate offers
adamc 17y ago
Last line: "It could be worse, they could be Apple." Ouch. And that can't be something Apple is looking for either.

62 points by brett 17y ago

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

Are people still making money from facebook apps these days? I thought it was over a while back (and thus why the mass exodus to develop on the iPhone although apple's approval process sucks.)

mattmaroon 17y ago
Are you joking? The top Facebook apps make more in a month than the top iPhone apps make in a lifetime. Even mid level apps, the sort that would never make the top 25 on iTunes, make more in a year than a top 10 paid app on iTunes does. Try Googling for Zynga Revenues. The Facebook platform is orders of magnitude more profitable than iPhone. Don't mistake buzz for profitability.
- buggy_code 17y ago
  Thanks for the tip. I can't up vote you enough. Almost tempted to create new HN accounts just to up vote you.
  - buggy_code 17y ago
    Why all the downvotes? (I don't mind downvoted, just curious about an explaination).
    - JimmyL 17y ago
      I would guess for the notion of creating another HN account to sockpuppet/additionally up-rate someone.
    - icey 17y ago
      Whenever I get downvotes, I stop to consider whether or not my comment has added to the conversation. If I think it has, and I can't figure out why I got downvoted, I just move on. Of course now I re-read all my comments right after I post them, so I tend to delete quite a few before voting happens either way.
- pistoriusp 17y ago
  Do you have data that you could use to backup your post?
  - blader 17y ago
    http://www.google.com/search?q=zynga+revenues http://www.google.com/search?q=zynga+revenues
- coglethorpe 17y ago
  > Zynga Don't get me started on my Mafia Wars addiction.
  - run4yourlives 17y ago
    Do you pay for that crap though?
  - elai 17y ago
    The game that can be (and is) played by a script.
    - teej 17y ago
      World of Warcraft can also be played by a script. That hasn't hurt it's profitability or popularity.
      - mattmaroon 17y ago
        Does World of Warcraft still make money? I thought everyone was on the iPhone all day now ;)
- blader 17y ago
  Matt, the more people think that Facebook apps don't make any money, the happier I think we'll both be. =)
  - mattmaroon 17y ago
    Ha, true. If it weren't broadly available information that you almost had to close your eyes to miss I'd never mention it.
alex_c 17y ago
Straight-up ad network banners won't make much money, but incentivized apps can pull in some serious cash.
- mattmaroon 17y ago
  Actually, you'd be surprised on the banners too. They've gotten better. We've been seeing regular 50 cents eCPM from just 1 banner, and if we tried hard, we could probably work in another one or two without seriously degrading the user experience. That adds up fast, since the platform makes it not too hard to get to hundreds of thousands (or even millions) of pageviews a day. 1m page views per day at 50 cents eCPM is still $182k per year. Not a bad second income stream.
  - alex_c 17y ago
    50c eCPM is definitely not bad on FB (of course, it depends on a lot of factors :p) Which ad network do you use?

cellis 17y ago

As far as i see it, for media/gaming apps there are two platforms that you can (try to) make enough money to buy a small island with: facebook and iphone. Both are flooded now with competitors, and not of the stupid sort, so good luck...and await the xbox mobile!

teej 17y ago
I don't think Matt is "trying" to make money on the Facebook platform with games. He's already profitable and growing - http://www.bluefroggaming.com/company.php http://www.bluefroggaming.com/company.php
mattmaroon 17y ago
Don't count out Myspace. There's a lot of money there too, also far more than the iPhone. Google around for Playdom, for instance.

grandalf 17y ago

Why is he complaining about Facebook when all the company did was respond to user complaints about apps that behaved badly? When thousands of people got daily invites to stupid apps, something had to be done. Regardless of whether facebook had ever announced the verified apps program, the new restrictions would make sense. When you develop for a young platform (particularly a proprietary one) you should realize it may be a moving target. It's far from extortion!

SamAtt 17y ago
Facebook certainly could have handled things better but other than that I agree with you. It seems a little obnoxious to demand free service. Even if it was free before. If it were more money he might have a better case. But given other platforms cost thousands of dollars (Sony's Playstation program for example) I don't see $375 as that much of a hardship.
- mattmaroon 17y ago
  You clearly didn't read the article through. I have no problem with them making money (beyond the extra few million ad impressions I generate them each day). I have a problem with the fact that it feels exactly like a Mafia-style protection payment. I guess it's ironic that the most notable game there is Mafia Wars. If they just said "everyone has to pay us $375/yr once they get over 10k installs" or something, I'd be way happier about making that payment.
  - elai 17y ago
    10k daily active users sounds more like it.
  - grandalf 17y ago
    The logic behind the fees is essentially the same as a Pigovian Tax: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax It may not be "fair" but it results in widespread modification of behavior in a socially beneficial way. Taxes on carbon fuels are not fair -- lots of firms built up huge infrastructure on narrow profit margins before such taxes were imposed -- but if you advocate a different policy what would it be? Every policy entails some "transfer" from one group to another. At least with a tax the incentive is clear and obvious moving forward, and precisely targets the specific negative externality it's intended to address.

haasted 17y ago

The article left me with a few "Facebook apps"-newbie questions. Hope someone here will be able to answer. 1. How are Facebook apps monetized? Advertising? 2. What do applications use the collected user data for? I once saw a description of the kind of access an application gets to the user's data, and it seemed a bit daunting.

teej 17y ago
1. Advertising + Virtual Goods (selling "items" or "currency" inside a game for power, pleasure, or status) 2. You can't really "collect" the data. Facebook's Terms state that you can't keep user data for longer than 24 hours. The original idea was that you could use their data to display demographically-relevant ads.
- rms 17y ago
  Also affiliate offers

adamc 17y ago

Last line: "It could be worse, they could be Apple." Ouch. And that can't be something Apple is looking for either.