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> NSA, which has been ~10 years ahead of private industry for the last couple decades, before which time they were even further ahead. Do you have anything to

by krek 13y ago

> NSA, which has been ~10 years ahead of private industry for the last couple decades, before which time they were even further ahead. Do you have anything to back this up other than the old rumor that NSA (specifically their crypto) was ahead of private industry by 10 years, something even Bill Binney said is probably not accurate any more. And mind you, this old "10 year ahead" phrase was always specific about crypto, nothing else. > In fact, I think it's likely that they're significantly smarter than any of us. Bear that in mind when you design your NSA-proof email applications. I wouldn't bet on it. NSA and many other government agencies are full of incompetent or barely adequate people. Just look at our intelligence failures regarding terrorism and in both wars the last 10 years. NSA has a huge budget with billions of dollars to throw at their problems, so they get stuff done, sure, but smarter than private industry? Nah.

tptacek 13y ago
Yes, I do have things to back it up. No, I'm not simply referring to cryptography. NSA is a very large organization; Bill Binney's say-so doesn't mean a whole lot to me. Look at the kinds of people that "graduate" from NSA TAO, and note that that's the program they let us know about. If you want to be wishful about this point, I won't stop you.
- krek 13y ago
  > Yes, I do have things to back it up. Such as? Bill Binney, having actually been one of the top mathematicians at NSA for 30 years, carries more weight than you do, unless you want to share specifics that back up the regurgitation of the "10 year ahead" phrase.
  - rdl 13y ago
    Binney and Wiebe left NSA at what I think was the low point of the agency, after losing political battles internally and getting marginalized. TAO, the shift to attacking IP networks, the shift to active attacks on commercial technologies (vs. spending years to defeat a decade-long-lifecycle foreign comm or cryptosystem), etc. mostly happened after they'd left.
- bazillion 13y ago
  All of the truly remarkable intelligences I met, I met at NSA. There are certainly people that aren't (as with any organization), but the NSA is probably the only meritocracy in the USG. The pipeline for advancement is one of either taking a technical route or a management route. This means that you can reach the highest levels of the organization and pay grades simply by being good at what you do in an analytical sense or a leadership sense. The thing that the average HN reader doesn't realize is how much responsibility is on the shoulders of those who choose to spend their time in service to the country (this could be for any country). I couldn't imagine the comments that I've seen about blacklisting former government workers and publicly shaming service men and women coming from anyone who has carried this kind of responsibility. My sidelining aside, you're definitely correct about TAO people being very skilled. I would have definitely loved to join their ranks. They wanted to swap a couple bodies to trade for me, but my division head wouldn't let me go =\
  - krek 13y ago
    > I couldn't imagine the comments that I've seen about blacklisting former government workers and publicly shaming service men and women coming from anyone who has carried this kind of responsibility. I think the 'activists' that were derided are also working hard in the interest of the country. As for blacklisting and shaming former servicemen, see the aforementioned Bill Binney, and Thomas Drake, former NSA workers who dedicated decades of their lives to their country, and were blacklisted and prosecuted by their own government for daring to blow the whistle about violations of the constitution and Americans' privacy rights.
    - tptacek 13y ago
      Bill Binney's complaint about the NSA was that they were wasting money on a system that did a poorer job of handling US-centric SIGINT. He was not himself opposed to collecting intelligence on US citizens; his own "ThinThread" system was designed to do exactly that, but with better technical controls over who could view the data. The problem with the NSA's programs isn't that they lack technical controls; it's that they're allowed to supervise their own collection efforts and build their own controls in the first place. The notion that Binney is a staunch opponent of PRISM-style surveillance is revisionist.

by krek 13y ago

tptacek 13y ago

Yes, I do have things to back it up. No, I'm not simply referring to cryptography. NSA is a very large organization; Bill Binney's say-so doesn't mean a whole lot to me. Look at the kinds of people that "graduate" from NSA TAO, and note that that's the program they let us know about. If you want to be wishful about this point, I won't stop you.

krek 13y ago
> Yes, I do have things to back it up. Such as? Bill Binney, having actually been one of the top mathematicians at NSA for 30 years, carries more weight than you do, unless you want to share specifics that back up the regurgitation of the "10 year ahead" phrase.
- rdl 13y ago
  Binney and Wiebe left NSA at what I think was the low point of the agency, after losing political battles internally and getting marginalized. TAO, the shift to attacking IP networks, the shift to active attacks on commercial technologies (vs. spending years to defeat a decade-long-lifecycle foreign comm or cryptosystem), etc. mostly happened after they'd left.
bazillion 13y ago
All of the truly remarkable intelligences I met, I met at NSA. There are certainly people that aren't (as with any organization), but the NSA is probably the only meritocracy in the USG. The pipeline for advancement is one of either taking a technical route or a management route. This means that you can reach the highest levels of the organization and pay grades simply by being good at what you do in an analytical sense or a leadership sense. The thing that the average HN reader doesn't realize is how much responsibility is on the shoulders of those who choose to spend their time in service to the country (this could be for any country). I couldn't imagine the comments that I've seen about blacklisting former government workers and publicly shaming service men and women coming from anyone who has carried this kind of responsibility. My sidelining aside, you're definitely correct about TAO people being very skilled. I would have definitely loved to join their ranks. They wanted to swap a couple bodies to trade for me, but my division head wouldn't let me go =\
- krek 13y ago
  > I couldn't imagine the comments that I've seen about blacklisting former government workers and publicly shaming service men and women coming from anyone who has carried this kind of responsibility. I think the 'activists' that were derided are also working hard in the interest of the country. As for blacklisting and shaming former servicemen, see the aforementioned Bill Binney, and Thomas Drake, former NSA workers who dedicated decades of their lives to their country, and were blacklisted and prosecuted by their own government for daring to blow the whistle about violations of the constitution and Americans' privacy rights.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    Bill Binney's complaint about the NSA was that they were wasting money on a system that did a poorer job of handling US-centric SIGINT. He was not himself opposed to collecting intelligence on US citizens; his own "ThinThread" system was designed to do exactly that, but with better technical controls over who could view the data. The problem with the NSA's programs isn't that they lack technical controls; it's that they're allowed to supervise their own collection efforts and build their own controls in the first place. The notion that Binney is a staunch opponent of PRISM-style surveillance is revisionist.