5 ms·

They are not supposed to know, the government is attempting to cover up it's crimes again[1] until it can work out immunity and monetary compensation for the ac

They are not supposed to know, the government is attempting to cover up it's crimes again[1] until it can work out immunity and monetary compensation for the actors involved[2]. [1] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/cia-chief-wanted-in-italy-for-rendition-on-his-way-back-to-us-8721235.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/cia-chief-w... [2] http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/10/supreme-court-telecoms-win-immunity http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/10/supreme... Edit: To the user below, this is various arms of the government passing around information amongst it's branches to avoid accountability and exposure as much as possible. Rather monolithic. Keep the ready made mantras out of this please.

anigbrowl 13y ago
For the nth time, government is not monolithic. It's misleading (mainly of yourself) to operate on the basis that it is.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- smokeyj 13y ago
  > For the nth time, government is not monolithic In what sense? A government is a monopoly on violence. I find monopolies to be monolithic.
  - krapp 13y ago
    Government is not monolithic in the sense that (at least in the US) its sheer size and complexity prevents all the actors involved from correlating their actions and ideologies into a single conspiratorial entity like swallows in flight. Not even in regards to tyranny and violence.
    - flumbaps 13y ago
      Large and complex systems can coordinate in a decentralised way to form a monolithic entity. Local interactions can lead to global convergence. Swallows in flight is a good example - each swallow only pays attention to the others nearby, yet the whole flock is coordinated. I'm not saying that is how it is in the US government. However, the closer the agencies work together, the more monolithic the government is likely to be (otherwise they wouldn't be able to cooperate).
  - anigbrowl 13y ago
    It's not so much that I'm popular as that I've had this conversation numerous times before, and I sometimes get lazy about laying out my arguments over again, like now. In brief, I direct you to the second graph at this link as an explanation of why I link Reagan's name with prohibition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate#Causes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rat... I didn't mention Nixon because for all his rhetoric his policies were pretty pragmatic, and he considered drug abuse at least partly a public health issue (as evidenced by his decisions). Reagan ran as a straight-up moralist and while I agree he'd probably be appalled at the militarization of police and abuses of power like this 'parallel construction' the DEA has been engaging in, this doesn't seem to have filtered through to his supporters. On the one hand he's portrayed as a selfless individual of almost god-like sagacity (I know this because I have ended up on the mailing lists of various conservative organizations, and this time of year I am the perplexed recipient of various Reagan calendars and suchlike), on the other he's almost invariably invoked in political debates in order to terminate discussion rather than broaden it.
- msgilligan 13y ago
  The evidence presented shows that they're getting better and better at being monolithic. And conspiring against Congressional and electoral oversight.
- ToothlessJake 13y ago
  Prisons are privatized, helped managed by the likes of SAIC[1]. FBI databases get shared amongst all the alphabet boys, including local law enforcement and private entities[2]. SAIC fills the monitoring center fused with fusion center niche with their "Domain Awareness Center[3]" being built in Oakland California. DEA uses the NSA who pulls data from all the various private/government/corporate/infiltrated databases to forge investigation paths, aka "intel laundering[4]". FBI assists in private digital forensics centers[5] run by Snowden's Booz Allen Hamilton which help all levels of law enforcement in things like intellectual and copyright prosecutions[6]. Endgame Systems uses illegal exploits and data harvested from botnets against whoever for a cool million or so at the whim of the NSA/others[7] while hackers come under further prosecution and filtering for their esoteric deeds[8]. All the while SAIC[9] managed drones continue to spread across the US[10] and elsewhere. Monolithic by choice, the whole lot. I would honestly appreciate those affiliated with ATT, Comcast, Blue Coat, Endgame, Booz, Hunton & Williams and others to halt their profiteering endeavors. This of course should apply to all functionaries of the various arms of the world's governments that are complying in exchange for their salary as well. [1] http://www.alanco.com/news_040104.asp http://www.alanco.com/news_040104.asp [2] http://www.dhs.gov/fusion-centers-and-joint-terrorism-task-forces http://www.dhs.gov/fusion-centers-and-joint-terrorism-task-f... [3] http://oaklandwiki.org/Domain_Awareness_Center http://oaklandwiki.org/Domain_Awareness_Center [4] http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/07/us-dea-irs-idUSBRE9761AZ20130807 http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/07/us-dea-irs-idUSBRE... [5] http://whois.net/whois/chicagorcfl.org http://whois.net/whois/chicagorcfl.org [6] http://chicagorcfl.org/ http://chicagorcfl.org/ [7] http://wiki.echelon2.org/wiki/Endgame_Systems http://wiki.echelon2.org/wiki/Endgame_Systems [8] http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-07/27/pornwall http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-07/27/pornwall [9] http://www.dailyfinance.com/2013/06/14/news-saic-wins-95-million-drone-management-contrac/ http://www.dailyfinance.com/2013/06/14/news-saic-wins-95-mil... [10] http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2013/08/coming_soon_to_cny_sky_miles_above_you_military_training_drones.html http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2013/08/coming_soon_t...
  - knowaveragejoe 13y ago
    I'm not sure that fits the definition of "monolithic".
- ferdo 13y ago
  Then why do so many people connected to government commit crimes with impunity while those with little to no connection to government get reamed by the legal system?
  - krapp 13y ago
    I think you're making a number of false or at least weakly proven assumptions here. - That a majority of people connected with government commit crimes (unless your belief is that government is by definition a criminal enterprise, I don't think this assertion makes sense.) - That a majority of criminals with government connections never face a penalty (the number of perp walks I've seen for mayors, senators, congressmen, etc would seem to suggest that while, yes, money and politics do go a long way in terms of abrogating justice, that sort of phenomenon isn't exclusive to politics nor is it universal.) - That some malice of forethought exists within the legal system in regards to disproportionately punishing civilians, presumably because the judiciary is also part of the same conspiracy of corruption. I believe the unjustness of the court system has more to do with economics and race than it does whether someone is connected to politics, although certainly the politics of appearing tough on crime have an effect. The argument that the government be 'monolithic' requires it to be both efficient and non-adversarial, neither is true. It also requires almost everyone to be amoral sociopaths, perfectly willing to go along with even the darkest and most depraved violations of civil liberties. To me, it's a step below invoking the Illuminati, it's wanting order in a system which is fundamentally chaotic for the sake of some grand narrative of good versus evil.
    - ferdo 13y ago
      > To me, it's a step below invoking the Illuminati, Ignoring or rationalizing the abuses of government while invoking the Illuminati is no way to go through life, son.
      - krapp 13y ago
        Luckily for me i'm doing neither, then.

anigbrowl 13y ago

For the nth time, government is not monolithic. It's misleading (mainly of yourself) to operate on the basis that it is.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
smokeyj 13y ago
> For the nth time, government is not monolithic In what sense? A government is a monopoly on violence. I find monopolies to be monolithic.
- krapp 13y ago
  Government is not monolithic in the sense that (at least in the US) its sheer size and complexity prevents all the actors involved from correlating their actions and ideologies into a single conspiratorial entity like swallows in flight. Not even in regards to tyranny and violence.
  - flumbaps 13y ago
    Large and complex systems can coordinate in a decentralised way to form a monolithic entity. Local interactions can lead to global convergence. Swallows in flight is a good example - each swallow only pays attention to the others nearby, yet the whole flock is coordinated. I'm not saying that is how it is in the US government. However, the closer the agencies work together, the more monolithic the government is likely to be (otherwise they wouldn't be able to cooperate).
- anigbrowl 13y ago
  It's not so much that I'm popular as that I've had this conversation numerous times before, and I sometimes get lazy about laying out my arguments over again, like now. In brief, I direct you to the second graph at this link as an explanation of why I link Reagan's name with prohibition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate#Causes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rat... I didn't mention Nixon because for all his rhetoric his policies were pretty pragmatic, and he considered drug abuse at least partly a public health issue (as evidenced by his decisions). Reagan ran as a straight-up moralist and while I agree he'd probably be appalled at the militarization of police and abuses of power like this 'parallel construction' the DEA has been engaging in, this doesn't seem to have filtered through to his supporters. On the one hand he's portrayed as a selfless individual of almost god-like sagacity (I know this because I have ended up on the mailing lists of various conservative organizations, and this time of year I am the perplexed recipient of various Reagan calendars and suchlike), on the other he's almost invariably invoked in political debates in order to terminate discussion rather than broaden it.
msgilligan 13y ago
The evidence presented shows that they're getting better and better at being monolithic. And conspiring against Congressional and electoral oversight.
ToothlessJake 13y ago
Prisons are privatized, helped managed by the likes of SAIC[1]. FBI databases get shared amongst all the alphabet boys, including local law enforcement and private entities[2]. SAIC fills the monitoring center fused with fusion center niche with their "Domain Awareness Center[3]" being built in Oakland California. DEA uses the NSA who pulls data from all the various private/government/corporate/infiltrated databases to forge investigation paths, aka "intel laundering[4]". FBI assists in private digital forensics centers[5] run by Snowden's Booz Allen Hamilton which help all levels of law enforcement in things like intellectual and copyright prosecutions[6]. Endgame Systems uses illegal exploits and data harvested from botnets against whoever for a cool million or so at the whim of the NSA/others[7] while hackers come under further prosecution and filtering for their esoteric deeds[8]. All the while SAIC[9] managed drones continue to spread across the US[10] and elsewhere. Monolithic by choice, the whole lot. I would honestly appreciate those affiliated with ATT, Comcast, Blue Coat, Endgame, Booz, Hunton & Williams and others to halt their profiteering endeavors. This of course should apply to all functionaries of the various arms of the world's governments that are complying in exchange for their salary as well. [1] http://www.alanco.com/news_040104.asp http://www.alanco.com/news_040104.asp [2] http://www.dhs.gov/fusion-centers-and-joint-terrorism-task-forces http://www.dhs.gov/fusion-centers-and-joint-terrorism-task-f... [3] http://oaklandwiki.org/Domain_Awareness_Center http://oaklandwiki.org/Domain_Awareness_Center [4] http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/07/us-dea-irs-idUSBRE9761AZ20130807 http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/07/us-dea-irs-idUSBRE... [5] http://whois.net/whois/chicagorcfl.org http://whois.net/whois/chicagorcfl.org [6] http://chicagorcfl.org/ http://chicagorcfl.org/ [7] http://wiki.echelon2.org/wiki/Endgame_Systems http://wiki.echelon2.org/wiki/Endgame_Systems [8] http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-07/27/pornwall http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-07/27/pornwall [9] http://www.dailyfinance.com/2013/06/14/news-saic-wins-95-million-drone-management-contrac/ http://www.dailyfinance.com/2013/06/14/news-saic-wins-95-mil... [10] http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2013/08/coming_soon_to_cny_sky_miles_above_you_military_training_drones.html http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2013/08/coming_soon_t...
- knowaveragejoe 13y ago
  I'm not sure that fits the definition of "monolithic".
ferdo 13y ago
Then why do so many people connected to government commit crimes with impunity while those with little to no connection to government get reamed by the legal system?
- krapp 13y ago
  I think you're making a number of false or at least weakly proven assumptions here. - That a majority of people connected with government commit crimes (unless your belief is that government is by definition a criminal enterprise, I don't think this assertion makes sense.) - That a majority of criminals with government connections never face a penalty (the number of perp walks I've seen for mayors, senators, congressmen, etc would seem to suggest that while, yes, money and politics do go a long way in terms of abrogating justice, that sort of phenomenon isn't exclusive to politics nor is it universal.) - That some malice of forethought exists within the legal system in regards to disproportionately punishing civilians, presumably because the judiciary is also part of the same conspiracy of corruption. I believe the unjustness of the court system has more to do with economics and race than it does whether someone is connected to politics, although certainly the politics of appearing tough on crime have an effect. The argument that the government be 'monolithic' requires it to be both efficient and non-adversarial, neither is true. It also requires almost everyone to be amoral sociopaths, perfectly willing to go along with even the darkest and most depraved violations of civil liberties. To me, it's a step below invoking the Illuminati, it's wanting order in a system which is fundamentally chaotic for the sake of some grand narrative of good versus evil.
  - ferdo 13y ago
    > To me, it's a step below invoking the Illuminati, Ignoring or rationalizing the abuses of government while invoking the Illuminati is no way to go through life, son.
    - krapp 13y ago
      Luckily for me i'm doing neither, then.