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"it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer" -- Ben Franklin... Today it seems the government believes it is bet

"it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer" -- Ben Franklin... Today it seems the government believes it is better for 100 innocent persons suffer than to allow 1 guilty to escape....

icebraining 13y ago
Yeah, back then hey just convicted really guilty people, like escaped slaves.
- pgeorgi 13y ago
  And today they would also hang some of the slaves that didn't flee under the assumption that they might try to escape at some point as well... (and it's possible that they did in the past - the cited passage wasn't law) Slavery was a grave error of that time. But it doesn't devalue the other, unrelated principles of yore as presented in that Ben Franklin quote of the GP.
- veidr 13y ago
  Yeah yeah, and witches, too. But the fact that, centuries ago, non-whites and women weren't considered Persons with a capital P still doesn't negate the fact that the USA has abandoned its most important foundational principles (rule of law, fundamental and inalienable civil rights, freedom of speech) over the past 12 years.
  - icebraining 13y ago
    12 years, you say? Where was the rule of law and fundamental civil rights when 80 000 citizens where sent to internment camps based solely on the nationality of their parents? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment
    - veidr 13y ago
      Well, sadly absent, sure. That was a tragic wartime clusterfuck -- but bad as it was, it was still a far cry from the current disappearing people (including citizens) and interning and torturing them for years on end. And the Japanese interment camps were later officially repudiated by the government, and reparations were paid to the victimized families in the Reagan era. Not that reparations are sufficient to make it right, but it it still qualitatively different than the current situation. I'm not claiming that the USA unhypocritically perfectly adhered to its stated values in the past. We broke the law and tortured people in WWII, in Vietnam, and in the guerrilla wars of South America, too. But you had to do those things below the radar. There were eventually consequences, if it was found out. Now the US government disappears its citizens, or kills them (and whatever men, women and children that happen to be nearby) right out in the open, and the President goes on TV to talk about what a weighty thing it is on his conscience for him to approve all these murder lists in advance. It's true, as some point out, that unconstitutional, illegal, and immoral things have always been done by the US government (and pretty much any government). However, it seems to me a fundamentally different thing when it is done without even pretending to adhere to the law or the constitution, in any more meaningful way than Nixon's claim that "when the President does it, that means that it is not illegal"[1][2]. [1]: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Richard_Nixon http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Richard_Nixon [2]: https://www.rutherford.org/publications_resources/john_whiteheads_commentary/attorney_general_eric_holder_if_the_president_does_it_its_legal https://www.rutherford.org/publications_resources/john_white...
    - AnthonyMouse 13y ago
      Rules have exceptions. Nobody can argue that the US government has never done anything wrong, but there is a difference between failing to uphold your principles and outright abandoning them. We shouldn't let past abuses excuse future abuses.

icebraining 13y ago

Yeah, back then hey just convicted really guilty people, like escaped slaves.

pgeorgi 13y ago
And today they would also hang some of the slaves that didn't flee under the assumption that they might try to escape at some point as well... (and it's possible that they did in the past - the cited passage wasn't law) Slavery was a grave error of that time. But it doesn't devalue the other, unrelated principles of yore as presented in that Ben Franklin quote of the GP.
veidr 13y ago
Yeah yeah, and witches, too. But the fact that, centuries ago, non-whites and women weren't considered Persons with a capital P still doesn't negate the fact that the USA has abandoned its most important foundational principles (rule of law, fundamental and inalienable civil rights, freedom of speech) over the past 12 years.
- icebraining 13y ago
  12 years, you say? Where was the rule of law and fundamental civil rights when 80 000 citizens where sent to internment camps based solely on the nationality of their parents? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment
  - veidr 13y ago
    Well, sadly absent, sure. That was a tragic wartime clusterfuck -- but bad as it was, it was still a far cry from the current disappearing people (including citizens) and interning and torturing them for years on end. And the Japanese interment camps were later officially repudiated by the government, and reparations were paid to the victimized families in the Reagan era. Not that reparations are sufficient to make it right, but it it still qualitatively different than the current situation. I'm not claiming that the USA unhypocritically perfectly adhered to its stated values in the past. We broke the law and tortured people in WWII, in Vietnam, and in the guerrilla wars of South America, too. But you had to do those things below the radar. There were eventually consequences, if it was found out. Now the US government disappears its citizens, or kills them (and whatever men, women and children that happen to be nearby) right out in the open, and the President goes on TV to talk about what a weighty thing it is on his conscience for him to approve all these murder lists in advance. It's true, as some point out, that unconstitutional, illegal, and immoral things have always been done by the US government (and pretty much any government). However, it seems to me a fundamentally different thing when it is done without even pretending to adhere to the law or the constitution, in any more meaningful way than Nixon's claim that "when the President does it, that means that it is not illegal"[1][2]. [1]: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Richard_Nixon http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Richard_Nixon [2]: https://www.rutherford.org/publications_resources/john_whiteheads_commentary/attorney_general_eric_holder_if_the_president_does_it_its_legal https://www.rutherford.org/publications_resources/john_white...
  - AnthonyMouse 13y ago
    Rules have exceptions. Nobody can argue that the US government has never done anything wrong, but there is a difference between failing to uphold your principles and outright abandoning them. We shouldn't let past abuses excuse future abuses.