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The Irish terrorists didn't cease their attacks because of the British method of fighting them. They succeeded in bombing mainland Britain 14 times, and they ca

The Irish terrorists didn't cease their attacks because of the British method of fighting them. They succeeded in bombing mainland Britain 14 times, and they caused more than 50,000 casualties including 3,500 deaths. London rail stations to this day have no trash cans because the IRA repeatedly left bombs in them. They stopped their attacks when their demands were met. I fail to see what you are advocating other than giving in to terrorism.

mikeash 13y ago
And what if I am advocating giving in to terrorism? That does not justify terrorism, as you seem to have said. Sure, the Irish didn't cease their attacks because of how the British fought them. Likewise, various anti-American terrorists haven't ceased their attacks because of how the US fights them.
- voodoo123 13y ago
  If you consider terrorism to be a valid means of advancing a political agenda, then you are justifying it. Your proposal implies that killing civilians should earn you a seat at the negotiating table.
  - foobarbazqux 13y ago
    It makes the most sense to consider the IRA and the UK as two separate groups. The IRA getting their demands met justifies terrorism for them; bad means, good ends. The UK getting peace justifies capitulating to the IRA for them; bad means, good ends. Why is capitulation bad means? The same reason that giving in to any bully is bad - you lose, the bully gets power, and it sets a precedent. That said, the UK government certainly did a lot to piss off the Irish and it's not clearly the case that in the events leading up to the conflict all of the UK's actions were great and the Irish's were horrible.
    - mikeash 13y ago
      So, again, you're assuming that the UK approach (or outcome) causes more terrorism, while the US approach causes less. And again, I disagree.
      - foobarbazqux 13y ago
        Giving in to terrorism does not end terrorism, it only ends the violent expression of it. If you do this, you end up living in fear (i.e. terror) that if you do not continue to do what the terrorists want, there will be more violence. Anyone who cooperates with an abusive power does so because they have been sufficiently terrorized by that power and they don't want to risk further abuse. That kind of cooperation is not a good outcome; it's only the acceptance of coercion, because the alternative is worse.
        mikeash 13y ago
        So, let's deliberately choose the worse outcome because... nope, I don't get it.
        foobarbazqux 13y ago
        That's not my point. My point is that the lesser of two evils is still evil. If I rob you at gunpoint and you give me your wallet and I spare your life, it's still a bad outcome, it just isn't as bad as it could be.
        mikeash 13y ago
        Why is that an interesting point? There isn't necessarily a non-evil way to proceed, just worse and less-worse ways. I never said this was all roses and wine.
        foobarbazqux 13y ago
        > I just said that it's a good outcome. Which it is. I was only arguing with this. > There isn't necessarily a non-evil way to proceed, just worse and less-worse ways. I never said this was all roses and wine. This is all I mean by bad means, bad ends. This mindset opens up the discussion to debating the pros and cons of different approaches. Anyway, take care.

mikeash 13y ago

And what if I am advocating giving in to terrorism? That does not justify terrorism, as you seem to have said. Sure, the Irish didn't cease their attacks because of how the British fought them. Likewise, various anti-American terrorists haven't ceased their attacks because of how the US fights them.

voodoo123 13y ago
If you consider terrorism to be a valid means of advancing a political agenda, then you are justifying it. Your proposal implies that killing civilians should earn you a seat at the negotiating table.
- foobarbazqux 13y ago
  It makes the most sense to consider the IRA and the UK as two separate groups. The IRA getting their demands met justifies terrorism for them; bad means, good ends. The UK getting peace justifies capitulating to the IRA for them; bad means, good ends. Why is capitulation bad means? The same reason that giving in to any bully is bad - you lose, the bully gets power, and it sets a precedent. That said, the UK government certainly did a lot to piss off the Irish and it's not clearly the case that in the events leading up to the conflict all of the UK's actions were great and the Irish's were horrible.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    So, again, you're assuming that the UK approach (or outcome) causes more terrorism, while the US approach causes less. And again, I disagree.
    - foobarbazqux 13y ago
      Giving in to terrorism does not end terrorism, it only ends the violent expression of it. If you do this, you end up living in fear (i.e. terror) that if you do not continue to do what the terrorists want, there will be more violence. Anyone who cooperates with an abusive power does so because they have been sufficiently terrorized by that power and they don't want to risk further abuse. That kind of cooperation is not a good outcome; it's only the acceptance of coercion, because the alternative is worse.
      - mikeash 13y ago
        So, let's deliberately choose the worse outcome because... nope, I don't get it.
        foobarbazqux 13y ago
        That's not my point. My point is that the lesser of two evils is still evil. If I rob you at gunpoint and you give me your wallet and I spare your life, it's still a bad outcome, it just isn't as bad as it could be.
        mikeash 13y ago
        Why is that an interesting point? There isn't necessarily a non-evil way to proceed, just worse and less-worse ways. I never said this was all roses and wine.
        foobarbazqux 13y ago
        > I just said that it's a good outcome. Which it is. I was only arguing with this. > There isn't necessarily a non-evil way to proceed, just worse and less-worse ways. I never said this was all roses and wine. This is all I mean by bad means, bad ends. This mindset opens up the discussion to debating the pros and cons of different approaches. Anyway, take care.