6 ms·

Giving Ruby a bad name: Women as Job Perks, Again

51 points by groundCode 13y ago

wheaties 13y ago
No, it's giving tech a bad name. Maybe as part of the whole "mentoring" thing angles and VCs give a start up, making sure the CEO doesn't post dumb sh*t like this in the first place (12+ experience need not apply) would go a long ways to helping the company not become a laughing stock. I mean, really, who is going to work at these companies?
- seivan 13y ago
  Richard Green isn't tech. He's MBA - we already know what their schtick is.
thauck 13y ago
As always, it's how it's presented that matters. I always ask for general demographic information when I interview with a company. It isn't about being sexist (well maybe it is against men)... I just don't want to work with a bunch of mid-20s white males. Not enough diversity of thought. Disclosure: I'm a mid-20s white male.
- rubiquity 13y ago
  I love laughing at self righteous people like you. You see the world as though people of different sexes and skin colors all think differently but at the same time think all white males think exactly the same without even realizing how ridiculous that is. What, do all white males in their mid 20s grow up in expensive suburbs? Get over yourself already. You're like that white guy that goes to Bubble Tea places and acts like he's into "ethnic" food.
  - mratzloff 13y ago
    This is an unnecessary personal attack. Like it or not, women and minorities often have different life experiences than white men. There is a range of experiences within each group, and there is overlap, and economics play a big role, but it's a leap to assume that someone looking for a diverse workplace is self righteous or clueless.
    - rubiquity 13y ago
      I wasn't replying to the OP. The person I replied to had to put a Disclaimer in their post to inform everyone that he is a white male in his mid 20s. If you don't see the ridiculousness in that then I can't help you.
VMG 13y ago
> Notice which of those things is not like the others? That’s right, number eight appears to be placing female employees on roughly the same level a jar of chocolate eclairs. Well - no. You could interpret it as signaling that it is a fun and diverse work place. But that wouldn't make for good Two Minutes Hate.
- city41 13y ago
  No, you really can't. The women are being sold as if they are kegerators or ping pong tables. This is not appropriate.
- mratzloff 13y ago
  "How about a harem?" may not be what he wrote, but it's definitely the tone. That says "sexist", not "fun and diverse".
- tomku 13y ago
  A diverse workplace is a perk, and belongs on a list of perks like the one given. "4X female developers" are not perks, they're people. When you put them on a list of perks alongside paid vacation, free chocolates and a keg of beer, you're objectifying them for use as bargaining chips.
  - PebblesRox 13y ago
    Do you know what the 4X part means? Are they trying to say they have four times the typical amount of women or is it something else? I'll give them the benefit of the doubt in terms of having good intentions, but I agree that they way they suggested women as something to tempt the reader away is just icky. I'm not sure that Richard Green gets that based on his apology. It would have been nice if he had been more explicit about what he did wrong and come up with a better alternative. He makes lots of claims about how evvnt is pro-diversity and anti-discrimination, but it's all tell and no show. Maybe the comments from employees at the bottom are supposed to be more of a demonstration, but right now they're also pretty vague and I think most of the commenters are men.
hluska 13y ago
I'm not a big fan of this title - while this is an ugly, immature job posting, I certainly hope it doesn't reflect at all on the Ruby community.
- seivan 13y ago
  I hope so as well given it wasn't made by a developer.
  - jamesbritt 13y ago
    I hope so as well given it wasn't made by a developer. But so what if it was? Even in that case it would reflect poorly on that developer. Not on everyone who coincidentally also uses Ruby.
- jamesbritt 13y ago
  I certainly hope it doesn't reflect at all on the Ruby community. How can it? It's the actions of single person, or that of a single company. When did they become the stand-in for the thousands of people who use Ruby? The idea that because some number of people all use a particular programming language that there is then some sort of cohesive and coordinated collective to which one can assign blame or praise is lazy and wrong.
jabbernotty 13y ago
The way I understand it, he was trying to state (in a clumsy way) what kind of team they have. Indicating that it's technical staff does not consist only of men.
- aredington 13y ago
  When you include the women as a perk in an effort to tempt engineering talent, it's easy to interpret the mindset of the author of using women as objects. Even if the author ISN'T authoring the list that way, they are not being cognizant of the pervasive problem of viewing women as objects and acting to prevent it. Everything else on the list is proffered as transactional compensations of talented engineers renting their labor to the CEO. Highlighting the youth of these engineers while including them on a list of perks implies specific things about how they are valued. If he had separately described the work environment, and had included these engineers in that description, and had not focused SOLELY on the young female engineers, then this wouldn't be a story.
  - jabbernotty 13y ago
    I could never have written the ad in such a thoughtless manner myself (neither could I have written your own well-reasoned post, for that matter). But I do think it is just clumsyness - I don't think he thinks of women as objects, he is probably just happy to have them around for what they add as a person. Or am I being naive?
    - aredington 13y ago
      Objectifying women is rarely an act that people embrace with a conscious perspective or decision. It's a way of behaving that most people engage in because the culture they occupy and learned in showed it as an acceptable behavior. They continue the behavior which reinforces their privileged position in society (again, often not consciously). The intent and perspective of the author do not make the problem go away any more than a hunter realizing he accidentally shot someone in the wilderness that he mistook for a deer makes the victim's bullet wound close. Part of the concern is that the youth and gender are highlighted prominently for these engineers, and ONLY the young woman engineers are listed as perks. I absolutely value the contribution women engineers bring to my work environments, they are valuable additions to our team, but some of them aren't young. Again, IF the engineering team was described separately, OR if other engineers were included as 'perks', e.g. "We have a senior Rails contributor on staff whom you can learn with", OR if the perk wasn't specifically calling out their youth and gender (we have a multinational team of many races and genders), then this would be a non-story.
Shank 13y ago
Don't CEOs ever run things by PR? This sounds like a rookie mistake of accidentally forgetting to cc the person in charge of making sure the company doesn't blow itself up in the press.
revelation 13y ago
I don't get it. Of course having women coworkers is a positive signal in a field dominated by males, and can certainly factor into a job decision.
- sp332 13y ago
  You need to think of this from the point of view of the women. How would you feel if someone put you up as a perk, based only on your gender? I would feel like meat. Edit: I'm not saying this was intended. Maybe they were actually trying to appeal to women (or men) who didn't want to work in a "bro environment", as pessimizer put it. Lots of explanations but they need an actual apology for messing up so bad.
  - nness 13y ago
    I would say that if they were trying to appeal to women, they shouldn't have counted them, and listed their place of birth, in lieu of you know... meritocratic qualities.
  - kawsper 13y ago
    One job description contained this > Young and dedicated colleagues Now I am being put up as a perk because I am 24 only because of my age? And is that discrimination?
    - sp332 13y ago
      It's probably agist. At least adding "dedicated" is better than just saying "young." But what was the context? Was that just a description of the work environment, or was it in a list of perks?
      - kawsper 13y ago
        > Was that just a description of the work environment, or was it in a list of perks? Oh right, I see the difference now. It was of course a description of the work environment, and not a list of perks.
pessimizer 13y ago
Maybe they were trying to appeal to me. Knowing that I'd be working with women and people from different cultures holds great appeal to someone who is sick of and uncomfortable in 100% bro environments. I lean towards thinking that was actually their intention, due to the mention of "frontend/backend" making sure that we know that the women they have are not all designers. Of course, it's as inappropriate to advertise explicitly as "we have three blacks, and two hispanics!" would be. How do you advertise and get credit for creating a diverse workplace? Maybe a collaborative blog w/pictures above every blogpost? A tiny company can't get away with sponsoring "cultural" events, like the large ones do.
- mratzloff 13y ago
  Oh please. You signal that by saying "we have a fun and diverse team", not "Which do you want, beer at your desk or your own team of European women?"
  - alipang 13y ago
    Yeah, a better idea might have been to put up a picture of the team to communicate the same thing. On the other hand, if the intent is to communicate the same thing, should we really be that upset about it? The ad is a bit crass I admit, but I don't really think the spirit of it was bad, and this whole thing with "omg, they're equating women with free beer" is just hyperbole.
    - PebblesRox 13y ago
      We should definitely give them the benefit of the doubt with regards to their intent, but I think it's still worth pointing out the negative connotations conjured up by the wording. It's important to write carefully because connotations don't go away just because you didn't intend for them to be there.
      - alipang 13y ago
        True, but sensationalizing this type of issues also does harm. What we get here is a description that hints at omgsexism, and some deeper misogynist motives from the authors since that gets your blog more attention. I don't think those motives are there, and that the authors are genuinely happy about having several female employees from diverse backgronds, but maybe expressed it in a clumsy way. We should be careful not to fall into this trope of female victimization for no reason.
seivan 13y ago
Sometimes I wonder if all this shit directed towards Rubyists is actually caused by asshole MBAs. Richard Green isn't a developer. Business Development Global Partnership Sales & Marketing Strategist Business Analyst European Sales Besides, his entire fuck post smells of asshole MBA.
driverdan 13y ago
This seems like a misunderstanding to me. People saying that it's comparing women to eclairs need to read the rest of the list. If that's the case they're also comparing "commission from online sales" to eclairs and "30 days paid holiday" to a coffee machine. There are serious gender inequality issues in our industry that need to be addressed. This isn't it.
- nness 13y ago
  Women listed as perks of a job, almost as "employment benefits," is thoroughly degrading. This is definitely the kind of issue that needs to be addressed in the community, and it not suitable to disregard smaller occurrences of sexism because we can pointer to more serious cases that we "have to deal with first." All instances of sexism are issues and deserve our the same contempt.
  - sp332 13y ago
    All instances of sexism are issues and deserve our the same contempt. This is a problem I'm having with some of the responses. Accidentally offensive things are not as bad as people intentionally degrading women. There are shades of gray and I think something as small as this should only require an apology to be done with it.
- andyjohnson0 13y ago
  "If that's the case they're also comparing "commission from online sales" to eclairs and "30 days paid holiday" to a coffee machine." Clue: none of those things are people.
  - joesb 13y ago
    And neither people nor coffee machine are vacation; neither people nor vacation are coffee machine. Some people value relationship (people), some people value convenience (coffee machine), some people value time (vacation). Why is it only okay to list non-people benefit? Because you don't want people who value people?
nness 13y ago
I'm sure their existing female developers enjoy being objectified like that, no doubt a horrid place to work...
beachstartup 13y ago
> Expresso people still do this?
Argorak 13y ago
The linked post does not even suggest that Ruby name or the Ruby community is in any way the issue here. It just happened on a Ruby mailing list. Period. So why is this posted under this title?
znowi 13y ago
A fine ad. I don't see a crime here. Except the sensational title maybe... Oh noooes! Ruby sucks! How dare they!!! Sexist community!
dsr_ 13y ago
For everyone trying to gloss this as a flawed attempt to establish a diverse workplace, here's how to do it: 1. Take it out of the list that is captioned "Let me know which of the following would tempt you from you desk…" 2. Instead, try something like "We are committed to a diverse workplace sharing in the strengths of many points of view."
- shawabawa3 13y ago
  > "We are committed to a diverse workplace sharing in the strengths of many points of view." Ugh... do we really have to talk like politicians to avoid offending people? Maybe something more like "We don't discriminate against women - 4 of our developers are female" I don't see why it should necessarily be taken out of "perks". I imagine a lot of female developers in particular would be tempted to move jobs to somewhere with more women.
  - dsr_ 13y ago
    "We don't discriminate against blacks - 4 of our developers are black" If that doesn't make you cringe, I'm not sure how else to get it across to you.
    - shawabawa3 13y ago
      "We are committed to a diverse workplace sharing in the strengths of many points of view." And that doesn't make you cringe? Admittedly mine wasn't great but there has to be some middle ground
llamataboot 13y ago
Aanand Prasad's excellent response to Richard Green's apology: http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/009141.html http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/0091...
hamf 13y ago
I'm sure the females in question had this ran by them and thought it would be a fun joke to play along with This is a stupid story
- lucisferre 13y ago
  Read further, there aren't actually any females french or otherwise, in question. This whole thing is insanity piled on insanity.
lucisferre 13y ago
Their [evvnt's] responses are even more confusing than the original post (http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-offered-perks-job-ad#comment-964234122 http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-offered-...). It almost seems like there is some sort of english language issue here. I can't even be sure what they were trying to accomplish. Whatever it was they got it so very wrong. Another reply: http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-offered-perks-job-ad#comment-964196339 http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-offered-... Edit: After reading their confounding responses it almost seems as if they were literally asking people what "perks" where most important to them. Kind of the way social media marketers suggest you word Facebook posts as questions to prompt engagement. I honestly can't imagine how someone can be this naive. Their ongoing response to criticism on Twitter is mindblowing. I really am at a loss to understand how anyone can be this foolish. https://twitter.com/evvnt/status/357120127113773056 https://twitter.com/evvnt/status/357120127113773056 Also this is the original article: http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-offered-perks-job-ad http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-offered-...
- PebblesRox 13y ago
  Here's the full text of the original post: http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/009095.html http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/0090... You're right about it being a literal question; it looks like he was hoping people would respond with the ones that appealed to them the most (i.e. "I'd be most interested in 1, 3, and 10"). "Ruby developers have quality banter and like to squish themselves in to tiny pubs, drink lots of beer and chat projects and code. More of point 3 required. So in the art of snaring a ruby developer in the next 6 weeks, what temps these rare creatures out of their natural habit to venture to pastures new... Let me know which of the following would tempt you from you desk... [...] I'm looking for your best number or a combination of up to 3..." So I guess it's all hypothetical; it seems like he was fishing around to figure out what would attract attention or interest.
metaphorm 13y ago
I think this is a case of unfortunate wording that leaves the wrong impression. My take on that "perk" is that the meaning that was intended is something like: "we have a gender diverse work place and have hired 4 awesome woman engineers! this is a great perk because these women kick ass and its a privilege to work with them." but of course, those words weren't used. they probably should have been rather than the words that did appear.
- llamataboot 13y ago
  Based on the non-apology (where this could have been clarified) and the comments on news articles and elsewhere, I really don't think this is the case, or it could have been clarified and apologized for. Also, people that put women programmers in lists of "tempting perks" and then when called out on misogyny say, "but dudes, I have a wife and daughter!" doesn't exactly give me much room to really believe that you are committed enough to addressing the problem of sexism in tech enough that you would write "we have a gender-diverse and multinational workplace!" in the same place where you are talking about beer-at-your-desk
  - sp332 13y ago
    He's a non-technical cofounder. He probably isn't steeped in the troubles of gender in tech.
- prakashk 13y ago
  > My take on that "perk" is that the meaning that was intended is something like: "we have a gender diverse work place and have hired 4 awesome woman engineers! [...]" Based on the comments made ([1] and [2]), that doesn't seem to be the case. The company doesn't seem to have any developers yet. [1] http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/009136.html http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/0091... [2] http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-offered-perks-job-ad#comment-964234122 http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-offered-...
adriawins 13y ago
Seriously, 'programmers being dicks' gets upvoted to front page? Someone might as well start 'programmers being cunts' with the first post discussing 'women and programming - one small step for productivity, one giant leap for drama and bullshit'
- seivan 13y ago
  He's not a programmer, he's what I would probably describe as; an MBA. Dev community does has it share of issues, we don't need to fuel it with more crap from people like him.
- nness 13y ago
  You signed up to Hacker News 10 minutes ago just to spew bigotry. I don't think its what this community needs. "Adria wins" as a username was pretty telling of your bias as well.
_pmf_ 13y ago
Ah, this is really cute. Lamenting lack of acknowledgement of women in tech, but (crazy internet lady) DAMNED IF ANYBODY DARES TO MAKE IT SOUND LIKE WORKING WITH WOMEN IS A DESIRABLE SITUATION! Above all, these "perks" sound a bit like they are addressed more at attracting potential female employees.
- llamataboot 13y ago
  Why don't you do a little test. Find about 10-20 women working developers. Show them this job ad. Tell me the percentage that feel that the ad is welcoming.
mataug 13y ago
This has got nothing to do with ruby other than the fact that they are looking for ruby developers on its mailing list . The title seems link baity IMHO. But I am against adding women as a job perk.
- PebblesRox 13y ago
  Yeah, if you read the whole thing he seems a little frustrated that his efforts to get the attention of ruby developers haven't been working. That's my impression at least: http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/009095.html http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/0090...
llamataboot 13y ago
The apology and aggressively calling out people criticizing them in blog/asrticle comments is particularly egregious as well - from both a "doing the right thing" perspective and from "stop digging the hole deeper" perspective. Apology here: http://evvnt.com/2013/07/i-love-ruby-an-equal-opportunity-employer/ http://evvnt.com/2013/07/i-love-ruby-an-equal-opportunity-em...
- sp332 13y ago
  That actually looks like a good apology. He starts by taking personal responsibility, clarifies the actual culture of the company, and throws in a legal disclaimer at the end.
  - mratzloff 13y ago
    It's a terrible apology. See this response for an excellent explanation of why: http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/009141.html http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/0091...
    - sp332 13y ago
      I don't like it. The questions seem more like rhetorical accusations instead of a conversation. I really don't like point 4 since the guy takes personal responsibility at the beginning of the letter (which this reply says he doesn't). And I think the invitation to talk follows the advice in this post to the letter: http://www.maryrobinettekowal.com/journal/on-sexual-harassment-at-conventions-elise-matheson-speaks-out/ http://www.maryrobinettekowal.com/journal/on-sexual-harassme... That is, making it as easy as possible to report harmful behavior. And point 3 is just pointing out that he's getting defensive. Well of course he's defensive, you're attacking him! Edit: OK I had to read the link from point 2 twice but I think I understand it now. However I don't see how it's relevant since it says "I didn't intend for you to feel that way, so if you do feel that way, don't blame me! My intent magically inoculates me from responsibility for what I actually said and how it was received!" But the apology specifically says "I got it wrong" and never claims that people shouldn't be offended. The whole reply is just wrong.
SomeRandomUser 13y ago
Is there some kind of elaborate joke going on in here? Or are you people incapable of reading a simple text? You don't advertise a diverse environment with "4X female french, italian and spanish junior". It can be stupidity or a lack of understanding of the English language (if you're feeling like justifying it) or just plain gender discrimination and a really sexist statement to make. Anyway, not much more can be expected from a job posting that seems targeted to 12 year olds.
mrt0mat0 13y ago
i think articles like this are the actual problem. Stop playing the woman card, get a job and shut your mouth. If you don't think you will be treated well because you're a woman, don't work there. I honestly am shocked that women care. This job is saying that there are already women here, which means you have a high chance of getting hired. The more women there, the less sexual harassment in the work place. I'm a white male, so I don't have any cards to play which is good because the game is stupid and i would have folded a long time ago anyway.
jhollida24 13y ago
Overreact much? The tone of the post is informal and is intended to be humorous. If there is a good balance of male/female coders there, there's a good chance one of the women saw it and thought it was funny. One of them might have even written it. For many programmers, I'm sure it is a perk to be around more women. They work in a completely male dominated field. The changes of meeting a potential partner who shares your interests at work is low.
aanand 13y ago
I responded on the mailing list. http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/009141.html http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/0091...
tapatio 13y ago
Who wouldn't enjoy working alongside a sexy French or Italian girl (or guy, no homo). Considering most engineers are men it makes sense to appeal to them in this fashion. Sex sells, duh.
tudorconstantin 13y ago
I think that women that get upset on this AD are those whose companies were not proud of having them in the team - they are jealous. The type of women who are wearing generous decolletages, but they feel insulted when someone admires their boobs. The type of women who like their eyes to be complimented, but again, they feel insulted when a man compliments their ass. I think we, as men, try too much to understand them, and they try too much to keep themselves mysterious.
tapatio 13y ago
So when is someone going to start the site progammersbeingcunts.tumblr.com?
dragonwriter 13y ago
I'm not sure why a startup CEO making a sexist job post looking for Ruby devs in a Ruby forum should give Ruby a bad name, more than, say, (in decreasing order of relevance), the particular CEO, the company, tech startup CEOs, and tech startup culture more generally.
tapatio 13y ago
Maybe they are trying to appeal to the 20 something virgin engineers that live in Man Jose and have never had a sexy girlfriend? Just a thought.

51 points by groundCode 13y ago

No, it's giving tech a bad name. Maybe as part of the whole "mentoring" thing angles and VCs give a start up, making sure the CEO doesn't post dumb sh*t like this in the first place (12+ experience need not apply) would go a long ways to helping the company not become a laughing stock. I mean, really, who is going to work at these companies?

seivan 13y ago
Richard Green isn't tech. He's MBA - we already know what their schtick is.

thauck 13y ago

As always, it's how it's presented that matters. I always ask for general demographic information when I interview with a company. It isn't about being sexist (well maybe it is against men)... I just don't want to work with a bunch of mid-20s white males. Not enough diversity of thought. Disclosure: I'm a mid-20s white male.

rubiquity 13y ago
I love laughing at self righteous people like you. You see the world as though people of different sexes and skin colors all think differently but at the same time think all white males think exactly the same without even realizing how ridiculous that is. What, do all white males in their mid 20s grow up in expensive suburbs? Get over yourself already. You're like that white guy that goes to Bubble Tea places and acts like he's into "ethnic" food.
- mratzloff 13y ago
  This is an unnecessary personal attack. Like it or not, women and minorities often have different life experiences than white men. There is a range of experiences within each group, and there is overlap, and economics play a big role, but it's a leap to assume that someone looking for a diverse workplace is self righteous or clueless.
  - rubiquity 13y ago
    I wasn't replying to the OP. The person I replied to had to put a Disclaimer in their post to inform everyone that he is a white male in his mid 20s. If you don't see the ridiculousness in that then I can't help you.

VMG 13y ago

> Notice which of those things is not like the others? That’s right, number eight appears to be placing female employees on roughly the same level a jar of chocolate eclairs. Well - no. You could interpret it as signaling that it is a fun and diverse work place. But that wouldn't make for good Two Minutes Hate.

city41 13y ago
No, you really can't. The women are being sold as if they are kegerators or ping pong tables. This is not appropriate.
mratzloff 13y ago
"How about a harem?" may not be what he wrote, but it's definitely the tone. That says "sexist", not "fun and diverse".
tomku 13y ago
A diverse workplace is a perk, and belongs on a list of perks like the one given. "4X female developers" are not perks, they're people. When you put them on a list of perks alongside paid vacation, free chocolates and a keg of beer, you're objectifying them for use as bargaining chips.
- PebblesRox 13y ago
  Do you know what the 4X part means? Are they trying to say they have four times the typical amount of women or is it something else? I'll give them the benefit of the doubt in terms of having good intentions, but I agree that they way they suggested women as something to tempt the reader away is just icky. I'm not sure that Richard Green gets that based on his apology. It would have been nice if he had been more explicit about what he did wrong and come up with a better alternative. He makes lots of claims about how evvnt is pro-diversity and anti-discrimination, but it's all tell and no show. Maybe the comments from employees at the bottom are supposed to be more of a demonstration, but right now they're also pretty vague and I think most of the commenters are men.

hluska 13y ago

I'm not a big fan of this title - while this is an ugly, immature job posting, I certainly hope it doesn't reflect at all on the Ruby community.

seivan 13y ago
I hope so as well given it wasn't made by a developer.
- jamesbritt 13y ago
  I hope so as well given it wasn't made by a developer. But so what if it was? Even in that case it would reflect poorly on that developer. Not on everyone who coincidentally also uses Ruby.
jamesbritt 13y ago
I certainly hope it doesn't reflect at all on the Ruby community. How can it? It's the actions of single person, or that of a single company. When did they become the stand-in for the thousands of people who use Ruby? The idea that because some number of people all use a particular programming language that there is then some sort of cohesive and coordinated collective to which one can assign blame or praise is lazy and wrong.

jabbernotty 13y ago

The way I understand it, he was trying to state (in a clumsy way) what kind of team they have. Indicating that it's technical staff does not consist only of men.

aredington 13y ago
When you include the women as a perk in an effort to tempt engineering talent, it's easy to interpret the mindset of the author of using women as objects. Even if the author ISN'T authoring the list that way, they are not being cognizant of the pervasive problem of viewing women as objects and acting to prevent it. Everything else on the list is proffered as transactional compensations of talented engineers renting their labor to the CEO. Highlighting the youth of these engineers while including them on a list of perks implies specific things about how they are valued. If he had separately described the work environment, and had included these engineers in that description, and had not focused SOLELY on the young female engineers, then this wouldn't be a story.
- jabbernotty 13y ago
  I could never have written the ad in such a thoughtless manner myself (neither could I have written your own well-reasoned post, for that matter). But I do think it is just clumsyness - I don't think he thinks of women as objects, he is probably just happy to have them around for what they add as a person. Or am I being naive?
  - aredington 13y ago
    Objectifying women is rarely an act that people embrace with a conscious perspective or decision. It's a way of behaving that most people engage in because the culture they occupy and learned in showed it as an acceptable behavior. They continue the behavior which reinforces their privileged position in society (again, often not consciously). The intent and perspective of the author do not make the problem go away any more than a hunter realizing he accidentally shot someone in the wilderness that he mistook for a deer makes the victim's bullet wound close. Part of the concern is that the youth and gender are highlighted prominently for these engineers, and ONLY the young woman engineers are listed as perks. I absolutely value the contribution women engineers bring to my work environments, they are valuable additions to our team, but some of them aren't young. Again, IF the engineering team was described separately, OR if other engineers were included as 'perks', e.g. "We have a senior Rails contributor on staff whom you can learn with", OR if the perk wasn't specifically calling out their youth and gender (we have a multinational team of many races and genders), then this would be a non-story.

Shank 13y ago

Don't CEOs ever run things by PR? This sounds like a rookie mistake of accidentally forgetting to cc the person in charge of making sure the company doesn't blow itself up in the press.

revelation 13y ago

I don't get it. Of course having women coworkers is a positive signal in a field dominated by males, and can certainly factor into a job decision.

sp332 13y ago
You need to think of this from the point of view of the women. How would you feel if someone put you up as a perk, based only on your gender? I would feel like meat. Edit: I'm not saying this was intended. Maybe they were actually trying to appeal to women (or men) who didn't want to work in a "bro environment", as pessimizer put it. Lots of explanations but they need an actual apology for messing up so bad.
- nness 13y ago
  I would say that if they were trying to appeal to women, they shouldn't have counted them, and listed their place of birth, in lieu of you know... meritocratic qualities.
- kawsper 13y ago
  One job description contained this > Young and dedicated colleagues Now I am being put up as a perk because I am 24 only because of my age? And is that discrimination?
  - sp332 13y ago
    It's probably agist. At least adding "dedicated" is better than just saying "young." But what was the context? Was that just a description of the work environment, or was it in a list of perks?
    - kawsper 13y ago
      > Was that just a description of the work environment, or was it in a list of perks? Oh right, I see the difference now. It was of course a description of the work environment, and not a list of perks.

pessimizer 13y ago

Maybe they were trying to appeal to me. Knowing that I'd be working with women and people from different cultures holds great appeal to someone who is sick of and uncomfortable in 100% bro environments. I lean towards thinking that was actually their intention, due to the mention of "frontend/backend" making sure that we know that the women they have are not all designers. Of course, it's as inappropriate to advertise explicitly as "we have three blacks, and two hispanics!" would be. How do you advertise and get credit for creating a diverse workplace? Maybe a collaborative blog w/pictures above every blogpost? A tiny company can't get away with sponsoring "cultural" events, like the large ones do.

mratzloff 13y ago
Oh please. You signal that by saying "we have a fun and diverse team", not "Which do you want, beer at your desk or your own team of European women?"
- alipang 13y ago
  Yeah, a better idea might have been to put up a picture of the team to communicate the same thing. On the other hand, if the intent is to communicate the same thing, should we really be that upset about it? The ad is a bit crass I admit, but I don't really think the spirit of it was bad, and this whole thing with "omg, they're equating women with free beer" is just hyperbole.
  - PebblesRox 13y ago
    We should definitely give them the benefit of the doubt with regards to their intent, but I think it's still worth pointing out the negative connotations conjured up by the wording. It's important to write carefully because connotations don't go away just because you didn't intend for them to be there.
    - alipang 13y ago
      True, but sensationalizing this type of issues also does harm. What we get here is a description that hints at omgsexism, and some deeper misogynist motives from the authors since that gets your blog more attention. I don't think those motives are there, and that the authors are genuinely happy about having several female employees from diverse backgronds, but maybe expressed it in a clumsy way. We should be careful not to fall into this trope of female victimization for no reason.

seivan 13y ago

Sometimes I wonder if all this shit directed towards Rubyists is actually caused by asshole MBAs. Richard Green isn't a developer. Business Development Global Partnership Sales & Marketing Strategist Business Analyst European Sales Besides, his entire fuck post smells of asshole MBA.

driverdan 13y ago

This seems like a misunderstanding to me. People saying that it's comparing women to eclairs need to read the rest of the list. If that's the case they're also comparing "commission from online sales" to eclairs and "30 days paid holiday" to a coffee machine. There are serious gender inequality issues in our industry that need to be addressed. This isn't it.

nness 13y ago
Women listed as perks of a job, almost as "employment benefits," is thoroughly degrading. This is definitely the kind of issue that needs to be addressed in the community, and it not suitable to disregard smaller occurrences of sexism because we can pointer to more serious cases that we "have to deal with first." All instances of sexism are issues and deserve our the same contempt.
- sp332 13y ago
  All instances of sexism are issues and deserve our the same contempt. This is a problem I'm having with some of the responses. Accidentally offensive things are not as bad as people intentionally degrading women. There are shades of gray and I think something as small as this should only require an apology to be done with it.
andyjohnson0 13y ago
"If that's the case they're also comparing "commission from online sales" to eclairs and "30 days paid holiday" to a coffee machine." Clue: none of those things are people.
- joesb 13y ago
  And neither people nor coffee machine are vacation; neither people nor vacation are coffee machine. Some people value relationship (people), some people value convenience (coffee machine), some people value time (vacation). Why is it only okay to list non-people benefit? Because you don't want people who value people?

nness 13y ago

I'm sure their existing female developers enjoy being objectified like that, no doubt a horrid place to work...

beachstartup 13y ago

> Expresso people still do this?

Argorak 13y ago

The linked post does not even suggest that Ruby name or the Ruby community is in any way the issue here. It just happened on a Ruby mailing list. Period. So why is this posted under this title?

znowi 13y ago

A fine ad. I don't see a crime here. Except the sensational title maybe... Oh noooes! Ruby sucks! How dare they!!! Sexist community!

dsr_ 13y ago

For everyone trying to gloss this as a flawed attempt to establish a diverse workplace, here's how to do it: 1. Take it out of the list that is captioned "Let me know which of the following would tempt you from you desk…" 2. Instead, try something like "We are committed to a diverse workplace sharing in the strengths of many points of view."

shawabawa3 13y ago
> "We are committed to a diverse workplace sharing in the strengths of many points of view." Ugh... do we really have to talk like politicians to avoid offending people? Maybe something more like "We don't discriminate against women - 4 of our developers are female" I don't see why it should necessarily be taken out of "perks". I imagine a lot of female developers in particular would be tempted to move jobs to somewhere with more women.
- dsr_ 13y ago
  "We don't discriminate against blacks - 4 of our developers are black" If that doesn't make you cringe, I'm not sure how else to get it across to you.
  - shawabawa3 13y ago
    "We are committed to a diverse workplace sharing in the strengths of many points of view." And that doesn't make you cringe? Admittedly mine wasn't great but there has to be some middle ground

llamataboot 13y ago

Aanand Prasad's excellent response to Richard Green's apology: http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/009141.html http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/0091...

hamf 13y ago

I'm sure the females in question had this ran by them and thought it would be a fun joke to play along with This is a stupid story

lucisferre 13y ago
Read further, there aren't actually any females french or otherwise, in question. This whole thing is insanity piled on insanity.

lucisferre 13y ago

Their [evvnt's] responses are even more confusing than the original post (http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-offered-perks-job-ad#comment-964234122 http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-offered-...). It almost seems like there is some sort of english language issue here. I can't even be sure what they were trying to accomplish. Whatever it was they got it so very wrong. Another reply: http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-offered-perks-job-ad#comment-964196339 http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-offered-... Edit: After reading their confounding responses it almost seems as if they were literally asking people what "perks" where most important to them. Kind of the way social media marketers suggest you word Facebook posts as questions to prompt engagement. I honestly can't imagine how someone can be this naive. Their ongoing response to criticism on Twitter is mindblowing. I really am at a loss to understand how anyone can be this foolish. https://twitter.com/evvnt/status/357120127113773056 https://twitter.com/evvnt/status/357120127113773056 Also this is the original article: http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-offered-perks-job-ad http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-offered-...

PebblesRox 13y ago
Here's the full text of the original post: http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/009095.html http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/0090... You're right about it being a literal question; it looks like he was hoping people would respond with the ones that appealed to them the most (i.e. "I'd be most interested in 1, 3, and 10"). "Ruby developers have quality banter and like to squish themselves in to tiny pubs, drink lots of beer and chat projects and code. More of point 3 required. So in the art of snaring a ruby developer in the next 6 weeks, what temps these rare creatures out of their natural habit to venture to pastures new... Let me know which of the following would tempt you from you desk... [...] I'm looking for your best number or a combination of up to 3..." So I guess it's all hypothetical; it seems like he was fishing around to figure out what would attract attention or interest.

metaphorm 13y ago

I think this is a case of unfortunate wording that leaves the wrong impression. My take on that "perk" is that the meaning that was intended is something like: "we have a gender diverse work place and have hired 4 awesome woman engineers! this is a great perk because these women kick ass and its a privilege to work with them." but of course, those words weren't used. they probably should have been rather than the words that did appear.

llamataboot 13y ago
Based on the non-apology (where this could have been clarified) and the comments on news articles and elsewhere, I really don't think this is the case, or it could have been clarified and apologized for. Also, people that put women programmers in lists of "tempting perks" and then when called out on misogyny say, "but dudes, I have a wife and daughter!" doesn't exactly give me much room to really believe that you are committed enough to addressing the problem of sexism in tech enough that you would write "we have a gender-diverse and multinational workplace!" in the same place where you are talking about beer-at-your-desk
- sp332 13y ago
  He's a non-technical cofounder. He probably isn't steeped in the troubles of gender in tech.
prakashk 13y ago
> My take on that "perk" is that the meaning that was intended is something like: "we have a gender diverse work place and have hired 4 awesome woman engineers! [...]" Based on the comments made ([1] and [2]), that doesn't seem to be the case. The company doesn't seem to have any developers yet. [1] http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/009136.html http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/0091... [2] http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-offered-perks-job-ad#comment-964234122 http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-offered-...

adriawins 13y ago

Seriously, 'programmers being dicks' gets upvoted to front page? Someone might as well start 'programmers being cunts' with the first post discussing 'women and programming - one small step for productivity, one giant leap for drama and bullshit'

seivan 13y ago
He's not a programmer, he's what I would probably describe as; an MBA. Dev community does has it share of issues, we don't need to fuel it with more crap from people like him.
nness 13y ago
You signed up to Hacker News 10 minutes ago just to spew bigotry. I don't think its what this community needs. "Adria wins" as a username was pretty telling of your bias as well.

_pmf_ 13y ago

Ah, this is really cute. Lamenting lack of acknowledgement of women in tech, but (crazy internet lady) DAMNED IF ANYBODY DARES TO MAKE IT SOUND LIKE WORKING WITH WOMEN IS A DESIRABLE SITUATION! Above all, these "perks" sound a bit like they are addressed more at attracting potential female employees.

llamataboot 13y ago
Why don't you do a little test. Find about 10-20 women working developers. Show them this job ad. Tell me the percentage that feel that the ad is welcoming.

mataug 13y ago

This has got nothing to do with ruby other than the fact that they are looking for ruby developers on its mailing list . The title seems link baity IMHO. But I am against adding women as a job perk.

PebblesRox 13y ago
Yeah, if you read the whole thing he seems a little frustrated that his efforts to get the attention of ruby developers haven't been working. That's my impression at least: http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/009095.html http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/0090...

llamataboot 13y ago

The apology and aggressively calling out people criticizing them in blog/asrticle comments is particularly egregious as well - from both a "doing the right thing" perspective and from "stop digging the hole deeper" perspective. Apology here: http://evvnt.com/2013/07/i-love-ruby-an-equal-opportunity-employer/ http://evvnt.com/2013/07/i-love-ruby-an-equal-opportunity-em...

sp332 13y ago
That actually looks like a good apology. He starts by taking personal responsibility, clarifies the actual culture of the company, and throws in a legal disclaimer at the end.
- mratzloff 13y ago
  It's a terrible apology. See this response for an excellent explanation of why: http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/009141.html http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/0091...
  - sp332 13y ago
    I don't like it. The questions seem more like rhetorical accusations instead of a conversation. I really don't like point 4 since the guy takes personal responsibility at the beginning of the letter (which this reply says he doesn't). And I think the invitation to talk follows the advice in this post to the letter: http://www.maryrobinettekowal.com/journal/on-sexual-harassment-at-conventions-elise-matheson-speaks-out/ http://www.maryrobinettekowal.com/journal/on-sexual-harassme... That is, making it as easy as possible to report harmful behavior. And point 3 is just pointing out that he's getting defensive. Well of course he's defensive, you're attacking him! Edit: OK I had to read the link from point 2 twice but I think I understand it now. However I don't see how it's relevant since it says "I didn't intend for you to feel that way, so if you do feel that way, don't blame me! My intent magically inoculates me from responsibility for what I actually said and how it was received!" But the apology specifically says "I got it wrong" and never claims that people shouldn't be offended. The whole reply is just wrong.

SomeRandomUser 13y ago

Is there some kind of elaborate joke going on in here? Or are you people incapable of reading a simple text? You don't advertise a diverse environment with "4X female french, italian and spanish junior". It can be stupidity or a lack of understanding of the English language (if you're feeling like justifying it) or just plain gender discrimination and a really sexist statement to make. Anyway, not much more can be expected from a job posting that seems targeted to 12 year olds.

mrt0mat0 13y ago

i think articles like this are the actual problem. Stop playing the woman card, get a job and shut your mouth. If you don't think you will be treated well because you're a woman, don't work there. I honestly am shocked that women care. This job is saying that there are already women here, which means you have a high chance of getting hired. The more women there, the less sexual harassment in the work place. I'm a white male, so I don't have any cards to play which is good because the game is stupid and i would have folded a long time ago anyway.

jhollida24 13y ago

Overreact much? The tone of the post is informal and is intended to be humorous. If there is a good balance of male/female coders there, there's a good chance one of the women saw it and thought it was funny. One of them might have even written it. For many programmers, I'm sure it is a perk to be around more women. They work in a completely male dominated field. The changes of meeting a potential partner who shares your interests at work is low.

aanand 13y ago

I responded on the mailing list. http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/009141.html http://lists.lrug.org/pipermail/chat-lrug.org/2013-July/0091...

tapatio 13y ago

Who wouldn't enjoy working alongside a sexy French or Italian girl (or guy, no homo). Considering most engineers are men it makes sense to appeal to them in this fashion. Sex sells, duh.

tudorconstantin 13y ago

I think that women that get upset on this AD are those whose companies were not proud of having them in the team - they are jealous. The type of women who are wearing generous decolletages, but they feel insulted when someone admires their boobs. The type of women who like their eyes to be complimented, but again, they feel insulted when a man compliments their ass. I think we, as men, try too much to understand them, and they try too much to keep themselves mysterious.

tapatio 13y ago

So when is someone going to start the site progammersbeingcunts.tumblr.com?

dragonwriter 13y ago

I'm not sure why a startup CEO making a sexist job post looking for Ruby devs in a Ruby forum should give Ruby a bad name, more than, say, (in decreasing order of relevance), the particular CEO, the company, tech startup CEOs, and tech startup culture more generally.

tapatio 13y ago

Maybe they are trying to appeal to the 20 something virgin engineers that live in Man Jose and have never had a sexy girlfriend? Just a thought.