8 ms·

Come to London

30 points by kaokun 13y ago

timbrooke 13y ago
> Come to London ... and don't forget to bring your mobile phone - we'd like to get to know each other a little better: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/10177765/Travellers-mobile-phone-data-seized-by-police-at-border.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/10177765/Travellers-mo...
- freyfogle 13y ago
  But is that really a reason not to come work in London for a few years? Is the situation any better in other EU countries?
  - guard-of-terra 13y ago
    The feeling is that yes, EU/Schengen borders are much less surprise-ridden than US/UK.
- kintamanimatt 13y ago
  This is a serious problem in its own right, but it's not really relevant to the post.
xadoc 13y ago
I believe the reason why Portuguese developers are not flooding UK (I don't completely agree, I see them coming more and more but slowly) is that any reasonably good developer in Portugal still can find work in consulting and state related IT firms. They work long hours and earn low, but enough to live comfortably there.
- freyfogle 13y ago
  But won't that opportunity be there after they spend 2-3 fun years in London?
  - xadoc 13y ago
    That is my point exactly to them, but it seems tougher to leave family and friends when you live comfortably and still save some cash. Here is a sample of excuses my Portuguese friends (SW Engineer related) gave me to not even consider job opportunities in London: - can't leave my family now, I have a girlfriend and don't want to leave her - my English is not good enough - I don't like the weather there (sounds stupid, but I hear this one a lot) Also right now in Portugal there is bullshit talk from employers that younger people should stay and help revamp the economy (by working extra hours for free) and the situation is so bad that in some areas like Design/Architecture people do internships for free and the interns keep being replaced with new ones after 3 months or so.
    - pjmlp 13y ago
      Yep, those excuses seem familiar.
    - namdnay 13y ago
      Why do you consider the climate to be a stupid reason? If your mood is, like many people, closely linked to the weather, if you love the sun, the sea and all the outdoor activities they bring, why wouldn't you stay? I can perfectly understand someone who chooses a less fulfilling professional life in order to see the sun every day. In fact many companies in the nicer parts of the world actively use the surrounding climate and geography as a recruitment argument.
- iaskwhy 13y ago
  And by "earn low but enough to live comfortably there" you mean around 1000 eur/m, a little bit more but not that much if you are lucky. I wouldn't call it living comfortably if you're not living with your parents.
- pjmlp 13y ago
  Another one is that people are too attached to stay in Portugal as well. I am living abroad since 2003 (FR, CH, D), and still meet people that moved back, even with the crisis, or tell me that they can't imagine themselves living abroad.
Peroni 13y ago
Is this not essentially a job ad disguised as a blog post?
- gotofritz 13y ago
  Disguised ... ?
cocoflunchy 13y ago
Reading your internships page (http://www.lokku.com/jobs/intern.html http://www.lokku.com/jobs/intern.html): > Will you pay for my travel to London? No. > Can you help me get a work permit? No. You need to be able to work in the UK. The internship sounds really interesting, but maybe if you want more people applying from all over Europe, you should be a little more open about your relocation policy? (I understand that the cost of travel might not be prohibitively expensive intra-europe, but it kind of reads as "Can I apply if I'm not in London? No.")
- freyfogle 13y ago
  If you're from the EU you don't need a work permit.
  - arethuza 13y ago
    I think it's the EEA - which is the EU plus Iceland, Norway and Lichtenstein: http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucitizens/ http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucitizens/
    - swombat 13y ago
      Also includes Switzerland.
  - cocoflunchy 13y ago
    I know, but I think it doesn't help with the "international-friendly" image that they want to display.
  - mapleoin 13y ago
    except for Romania and Bulgaria.
- vickytnz 13y ago
  Doesn't being an EU citizen give you free right of work? (This is spoken as someone who's non-EU and is going to have all kinds of fun sorting out visas once I finish studying in the UK).
sztanko 13y ago
Several years ago I treated Lokku as the coolest place to work in London according to my criterias. It was the only one map-obsessed, small, open-source friendly, no-bullshit startup in a nice location. Unfortunately I was a Java guy and they were looking for Perl people. I believe you cannot underestimate the impact it makes on London geo scene. Without Lokku, London will be a rather dull place from geospatial perspective. If I were in the Uni now (I graduated in Hungary), I would definitely apply.
- henrik_w 13y ago
  The language shouldn't matter for a good developer. From their web page: "Many of our past interns have been new to Perl."
  - sztanko 13y ago
    I wasn't an intern and I wanted to go towards Java/Hadoop. Which was not required at Lokku at that time.
kolektiv 13y ago
Hmmm. I'm not one of the people you're really looking for here, but I could take a stab at reasons why I haven't been beating a path to your door... a) I haven't really heard of you. A few words here and there over the years, but how much do you get out there and tell the geek community you exist? I'm guessing it's specific to a few specific tech areas - which I haven't seen. b) You're in London, you talk about "working hard" and being in your "Clerkenwell office". I've worked round there before, but really? I want a company who's more about working smart - and not in one place all the time. How much do you really need to physically see me? Commuting, plus a little bit of a tiny hint of "macho hard work culture" (probably unfair, but...) is enough for me to take a place off my list. It's a sellers market, generally. c) Also... money. London is expensive. Everyone knows London is expensive (and they're right). You don't say anything about money - no hints, etc. My reaction (being picky) is that it probably isn't enough to make it worth my while (and also that you may try and make me the lowest offer you think you can - I'm assuming you don't have open pay scales). d) Effort. You talk about your tough hiring - multiple rounds, tests, a day working with you (you don't say whether you'll pay me for this...) Why would I do this? If I'm smart, capable, good at what I do, I probably know people who want to work with me already - why jump through these hoops for a possibly good job then? These may be unfair points - I hope not, but perhaps - but finding good people right now is about attracting them, not throwing up barriers or making them work for it.
- mseebach 13y ago
  http://www.lokku.com/jobs/intern.html http://www.lokku.com/jobs/intern.html > Is this for real? > Yes. Uhm, ok. I mean, it looks good, but it's not like I needed to pinch myself afterwards. Also: > You're in London > That's where we are. We're not hiring remote workers. We're looking forward to some intense and fast paced face-to-face brainstorming sessions. You need to be in London. There's a certain vibe of, you know, needing to be in London and not, say, Portugal in that phrasing.
  - kaokun 13y ago
    You're right on that second point, that needs re-wording. With that in there it's surprising we've had so many people from Europe, the US, Canada, and even non-London-UK apply for and get internships with us :P
lifeisstillgood 13y ago
Sorry, but this entirely missed the point. Developers, hell, almost all office workers, should think remote working first then worry about relocation. The comments all through here are quite right - it is hard for anyone to move country, even talented, young, healthy, unattached interns. In the future workers will be able to work with any company in the world. This will scare the hell out of all companies and they will improve the pay and conditions. On the other hand, I strongly urge anyone with developer skills and no family ties to move to any major city in Europe and live and work for a few years. Just go. The job is far far less important than simply being there.
rdouble 13y ago
My EU friends claim the pay is never enough at London startups to make moving worth their while. Then they say something about the weather.
dkrich 13y ago
Will this internship make me filthy rich? No. If it's money you're after go work in the sub-basement of a bank on an obscure back end system that no one will care about. If you want the chance to work on critical projects used by millions of people, to have a voice in designing complex systems, to have your ideas be valued, and to learn an exceptional amount in a very short period of time then this is the place for you. Come again? I don't care how successful these guys are- I hope whoever crafted this page isn't judging the communication portion of the interview. To whom is this kind of language supposed to appeal?
- kaokun 13y ago
  Personally I love it... to each his or her own :-) It's verbose but information-rich, no?
- rdouble 13y ago
  It's a bit of a straw man. In NYC at least, many of the hedge funds have more "startup" like environments than the startups do.

30 points by kaokun 13y ago

> Come to London ... and don't forget to bring your mobile phone - we'd like to get to know each other a little better: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/10177765/Travellers-mobile-phone-data-seized-by-police-at-border.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/10177765/Travellers-mo...

freyfogle 13y ago
But is that really a reason not to come work in London for a few years? Is the situation any better in other EU countries?
- guard-of-terra 13y ago
  The feeling is that yes, EU/Schengen borders are much less surprise-ridden than US/UK.
kintamanimatt 13y ago
This is a serious problem in its own right, but it's not really relevant to the post.

xadoc 13y ago

I believe the reason why Portuguese developers are not flooding UK (I don't completely agree, I see them coming more and more but slowly) is that any reasonably good developer in Portugal still can find work in consulting and state related IT firms. They work long hours and earn low, but enough to live comfortably there.

freyfogle 13y ago
But won't that opportunity be there after they spend 2-3 fun years in London?
- xadoc 13y ago
  That is my point exactly to them, but it seems tougher to leave family and friends when you live comfortably and still save some cash. Here is a sample of excuses my Portuguese friends (SW Engineer related) gave me to not even consider job opportunities in London: - can't leave my family now, I have a girlfriend and don't want to leave her - my English is not good enough - I don't like the weather there (sounds stupid, but I hear this one a lot) Also right now in Portugal there is bullshit talk from employers that younger people should stay and help revamp the economy (by working extra hours for free) and the situation is so bad that in some areas like Design/Architecture people do internships for free and the interns keep being replaced with new ones after 3 months or so.
  - pjmlp 13y ago
    Yep, those excuses seem familiar.
  - namdnay 13y ago
    Why do you consider the climate to be a stupid reason? If your mood is, like many people, closely linked to the weather, if you love the sun, the sea and all the outdoor activities they bring, why wouldn't you stay? I can perfectly understand someone who chooses a less fulfilling professional life in order to see the sun every day. In fact many companies in the nicer parts of the world actively use the surrounding climate and geography as a recruitment argument.
iaskwhy 13y ago
And by "earn low but enough to live comfortably there" you mean around 1000 eur/m, a little bit more but not that much if you are lucky. I wouldn't call it living comfortably if you're not living with your parents.
pjmlp 13y ago
Another one is that people are too attached to stay in Portugal as well. I am living abroad since 2003 (FR, CH, D), and still meet people that moved back, even with the crisis, or tell me that they can't imagine themselves living abroad.

Peroni 13y ago

Is this not essentially a job ad disguised as a blog post?

gotofritz 13y ago
Disguised ... ?

cocoflunchy 13y ago

Reading your internships page (http://www.lokku.com/jobs/intern.html http://www.lokku.com/jobs/intern.html): > Will you pay for my travel to London? No. > Can you help me get a work permit? No. You need to be able to work in the UK. The internship sounds really interesting, but maybe if you want more people applying from all over Europe, you should be a little more open about your relocation policy? (I understand that the cost of travel might not be prohibitively expensive intra-europe, but it kind of reads as "Can I apply if I'm not in London? No.")

freyfogle 13y ago
If you're from the EU you don't need a work permit.
- arethuza 13y ago
  I think it's the EEA - which is the EU plus Iceland, Norway and Lichtenstein: http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucitizens/ http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucitizens/
  - swombat 13y ago
    Also includes Switzerland.
- cocoflunchy 13y ago
  I know, but I think it doesn't help with the "international-friendly" image that they want to display.
- mapleoin 13y ago
  except for Romania and Bulgaria.
vickytnz 13y ago
Doesn't being an EU citizen give you free right of work? (This is spoken as someone who's non-EU and is going to have all kinds of fun sorting out visas once I finish studying in the UK).

sztanko 13y ago

Several years ago I treated Lokku as the coolest place to work in London according to my criterias. It was the only one map-obsessed, small, open-source friendly, no-bullshit startup in a nice location. Unfortunately I was a Java guy and they were looking for Perl people. I believe you cannot underestimate the impact it makes on London geo scene. Without Lokku, London will be a rather dull place from geospatial perspective. If I were in the Uni now (I graduated in Hungary), I would definitely apply.

henrik_w 13y ago
The language shouldn't matter for a good developer. From their web page: "Many of our past interns have been new to Perl."
- sztanko 13y ago
  I wasn't an intern and I wanted to go towards Java/Hadoop. Which was not required at Lokku at that time.

kolektiv 13y ago

Hmmm. I'm not one of the people you're really looking for here, but I could take a stab at reasons why I haven't been beating a path to your door... a) I haven't really heard of you. A few words here and there over the years, but how much do you get out there and tell the geek community you exist? I'm guessing it's specific to a few specific tech areas - which I haven't seen. b) You're in London, you talk about "working hard" and being in your "Clerkenwell office". I've worked round there before, but really? I want a company who's more about working smart - and not in one place all the time. How much do you really need to physically see me? Commuting, plus a little bit of a tiny hint of "macho hard work culture" (probably unfair, but...) is enough for me to take a place off my list. It's a sellers market, generally. c) Also... money. London is expensive. Everyone knows London is expensive (and they're right). You don't say anything about money - no hints, etc. My reaction (being picky) is that it probably isn't enough to make it worth my while (and also that you may try and make me the lowest offer you think you can - I'm assuming you don't have open pay scales). d) Effort. You talk about your tough hiring - multiple rounds, tests, a day working with you (you don't say whether you'll pay me for this...) Why would I do this? If I'm smart, capable, good at what I do, I probably know people who want to work with me already - why jump through these hoops for a possibly good job then? These may be unfair points - I hope not, but perhaps - but finding good people right now is about attracting them, not throwing up barriers or making them work for it.

mseebach 13y ago
http://www.lokku.com/jobs/intern.html http://www.lokku.com/jobs/intern.html > Is this for real? > Yes. Uhm, ok. I mean, it looks good, but it's not like I needed to pinch myself afterwards. Also: > You're in London > That's where we are. We're not hiring remote workers. We're looking forward to some intense and fast paced face-to-face brainstorming sessions. You need to be in London. There's a certain vibe of, you know, needing to be in London and not, say, Portugal in that phrasing.
- kaokun 13y ago
  You're right on that second point, that needs re-wording. With that in there it's surprising we've had so many people from Europe, the US, Canada, and even non-London-UK apply for and get internships with us :P

lifeisstillgood 13y ago

Sorry, but this entirely missed the point. Developers, hell, almost all office workers, should think remote working first then worry about relocation. The comments all through here are quite right - it is hard for anyone to move country, even talented, young, healthy, unattached interns. In the future workers will be able to work with any company in the world. This will scare the hell out of all companies and they will improve the pay and conditions. On the other hand, I strongly urge anyone with developer skills and no family ties to move to any major city in Europe and live and work for a few years. Just go. The job is far far less important than simply being there.

rdouble 13y ago

My EU friends claim the pay is never enough at London startups to make moving worth their while. Then they say something about the weather.

dkrich 13y ago

Will this internship make me filthy rich? No. If it's money you're after go work in the sub-basement of a bank on an obscure back end system that no one will care about. If you want the chance to work on critical projects used by millions of people, to have a voice in designing complex systems, to have your ideas be valued, and to learn an exceptional amount in a very short period of time then this is the place for you. Come again? I don't care how successful these guys are- I hope whoever crafted this page isn't judging the communication portion of the interview. To whom is this kind of language supposed to appeal?

kaokun 13y ago
Personally I love it... to each his or her own :-) It's verbose but information-rich, no?
rdouble 13y ago
It's a bit of a straw man. In NYC at least, many of the hedge funds have more "startup" like environments than the startups do.