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US sends pre-emptive warrant to Ireland to stop Snowden flight refuelling there
- kimlelly 13y agoI guess they're getting afraid of this scenario, as well: http://www.thelocal.de/national/20130704-50697.html http://www.thelocal.de/national/20130704-50697.html
- k-mcgrady 13y ago>> "if he travelled via Shannon as part of his efforts to get to Cuba and was arrested under the provisional arrest warrant pending an extradition process by the American authorities in the Irish courts, he could apply for asylum while being held in prison here." An interesting prospect but incredibly unlikely.
- justincormack 13y agoNon extradition due to death penalty might work anywhere in Europe. It might not if US says it won't execute Snowden (if they lie, then no one will ever be extradited on that basis again, as that would be illegal from then on).
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- GHFigs 13y agoFor the sake of background: people bring up the prospect of the death penalty for espionage often in these cases, but it's not something the US has actually invoked since WWII, even in very clear-cut situations where money changed hands or people died as a result. For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noshir_Gowadia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noshir_Gowadia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Kendall_Myers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Kendall_Myers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_James_Nicholson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_James_Nicholson
- grecy 13y agoI don't think the US have any interest in the death penalty for Snowden. They'd much rather him rot without trial in Guantanamo for the rest of his life, as to serve a better lesson to anyone thinking of following his footsteps.
- justincormack 13y agoI don't think he could be extradited if he was going to not be tried either; that would also be illegal in the US as he is a citizen...
- grecy 13y agoIt's clear America doesn't care about doing illegal things, even to American citizens See: holding Manning for years without trial, killing American citizens without trail (overseas)
- toyg 13y agoOh, he would be "trialled", of course. With a special trial, that could last decades, time he gets to spend in protective custody, of course. After all the bull*hit about "enemy combatants", my faith in the separation of powers in the US is quite nil.
- transfire 13y agoOn the 4th of this July the fireworks appeared as tears falling from our skies spirit sinking with the fading twinkle On this 4th of July the fireworks could be heard bombs bursting against nerves and conscious in this land that has become so large in view so small in vision nothing but the feared and the fearing
- smalltalk 13y agoNo. Can we please stop this adolescent drama? If you think there's a better country, please, leave the US and go there. Do the rest of us a favor.
- iaskwhy 13y agoOr stay and fight. You know, like everyone else did before even when the others would say you should just go away.
- insuffi 13y agoThe inequality adjusted HDI says there are exactly 15 countries better than the US in the world. Also, don't you find it a tiny bit ironic that your response to him was childish and immature e.g. "Well you can leave, if you don't like something". If everyone was like you, we'd have no progress, no revolution, and no change.
- bengillies 13y agoIt's perfectly reasonable to enjoy most of the things about a country and still find issues with it. It's also perfectly reasonable to question and complain about stuff when you think it's wrong. Not doing that, putting your fingers in your ears and running away is arguably the worse crime.
- xradionut 13y agoWhich is funny since many of the US wealthy regard their homes outsides the States as bailout refuges if the situation in the States gets hostile to them. (Which is probably a good insurance policy...)
- hopeless 13y agoOur (Irish) politicians have run away from lots of hard decisions recently but I really wish they'd have the balls (population, economy, armed forces) to tell the US government to fuck off occasionally.
- tomelders 13y agoThe Irish probably could tell the states to "feck off" and have the backing of the US public. What with every american clinging on like spider monkeys to the last few remaining irish genes in their gene pool.
- xradionut 13y agoUS has other points of leverage on the Irish. (How about we close this nice tax scam you got going...)
- Spearchucker 13y agoSerious question: just how do you figure the US can close that tax loophole (it's law, so not a scam)? Did you know that it only works when money is routed through the Netherlands? And from there to the Caribbean or elsewhere? You're stretching it, implying the US can sway lawmakers abroad.
- hnriot 13y agohaha, how naive.
- Spearchucker 13y agoNot so sure. Those tax breaks are designed to benefit the Irish economy. When your nation can't eat, would you side with a foreign government? Also, if they toilet their economy, who do you think will bail them out? You're aware that they're part of the EU, right?
- toyg 13y ago
- wwhitman 13y agoThis made me think of a court case a few years back. The defendant was arrested for shooting a potato cannon (PVC pipe, BBQ grill lighter and hairspray for propellant). When the charges were read as using a dangerous weapon the defendant's lawyer replied that if a potato were a dangerous weapon then Ireland would be a superpower.
- mikeash 13y agoThat's rather stupid. Generally, it is not the bullet that is considered to be the dangerous weapon, but the gun which fires it. If the lawyer thinks a high-speed potato can't kill somebody, I suggest he go give it a shot (pun intended) and see what happens.
- nwh 13y agoThe bullet contains everything you need, not the gun. Lead and propellent, the gun is just a convenient tube and handle.
- mikeash 13y agoYou're thinking of the cartridge. The bullet is just the projectile, and does not include the propellant.
- charonn0 13y agoYou're all way over-thinking potatoes.
- mikeash 13y agoI don't think so. Any projectile of decent mass will be deadly when accelerated to high speed. There's nothing that magically exempts potatoes from this just because they're edible. You can absolutely kill someone with a potato gun. The prosecution in question may be wrong for other reasons (e.g. fired safely and not with any intent to harm), but "potatoes can't kill, because otherwise Ireland would be a superpower" is not the way to argue it.
- eliasmacpherson 13y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition_by_the_United_States#Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition_by_the... Ah the US missed a beat, the Irish politicians would happily have him detained in Shannon and escorted on to a Hercules, by men wearing blindfolds so as not to see any evil.
- mtgx 13y agoIt seems the US bullying of other countries over Snowden is several times worse than it was for Wikileaks.
- nicholassmith 13y agoThere was a funny line in The Social Network that went: `Like my brother and I are in skeleton costumes chasing the Karate Kid around a gym.` That's kind of what America looks like. Snowden has all these mighty military secrets, but at the end of the day they just look like school bullies who want to smack him around. What Snowden did is without a doubt a crime, but one that seems like it was necessary, and should be easy to resolve. The longer this draws on the more America looks like a misguided bully, forcing weaker kids to pick on the nerd. It doesn't help that the mood seems to be to string him up as a traitor in war time. Edit: 'easy to resolve' sounds flippant, but it's being turned into the biggest manhunt on a global stage since Bin Laden.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- mchusma 13y agoI agree with everything but the concept that what he did "is without a doubt a crime." In fact, many people, including lawyers and constitutional scholars, have debate on the subject. The reasons they might not be a crime include: -Legal whistle blower protections -precedent of committing lesser crimes to prevent larger crimes -international case law around disobeying illegal orders -the application of reasonableness in the 4th amendment Snowden is committing a crime no more than Daniel Ellsburg releasing the Pentagon Papers was a crime, and Mark Felt (Deep Throat) was a criminal for exposing FBI and presidential misconduct.
- nicholassmith 13y agoOoh, that's interesting thank you. My knowledge of constitutional application is Not Great, so it's interesting it'd fall within that. I think it's possibly still a crime but one with a certain level of legal affordability, but I'm sure much smarter people than me are working on that definition. I'd have said the last one (FBI & President) wouldn't fall under treason exactly, as whilst they were whistleblower leakers they weren't of a certain level of international security relations.
- embolism 13y ago
- Shivetya 13y agoSo a diplomatic flight would be or would not be safe? Or does it entirely depend on how big you are? Does diplomatic immunity only exist on the grounds of an embassy and all points between simply make you fair game? As in, whose plane would you have to be on to be safe? The Popes?
- 1337biz 13y agoI still don't get why Russia is not just putting him on military transport to Cuba. They should have "some" experience flying that route without US interference. Nobody would mess around with a military transport and getting him out of the country would probably reflect on Russia better than just harboring him around at the transit zone.
- atwebb 13y agoThat would be a direct action by Russia, currently, they have some play as far as their involvement and what's technically ok. They've done it before.
- grecy 13y ago> just harboring him around at the transit zone. Russia are not harboring him because he's not in Russia, he's in an international transit lounge and therefore not actually in any country. It has always shocked me that US airports don't have this concept, it must be the only major world transport hub that doesn't.
- yardie 13y ago> he's in an international transit lounge and therefore not actually in any country. What would prevent other asylum seekers or refugees from doing the same? Leave a war torn hell hole and camp out at Stuttgart International, sleep on the benches and busk or beg to get a meal. The fact that this doesn't happens means there are other reasons and the transit lounge isn't a DMZ as you claim.
- grecy 13y agoYou must legally purchase a ticket that gets you to a destination you are legally allowed to enter. 99.9999% of airlines won't let you board a plane without that, because they foot the bill if you get sent back. I've been in many international transit lounges "in" countries I wasn't legally permitted to enter (no visa).. but I had an onward ticket to a country I could enter, so I was allowed to do it.
- 13y ago
- coldcode 13y agoI am from the US and hope someone out there tells us to go to hell. Until there is real resistance our leaders will continue to act like they own the earth.
- znowi 13y agoWhere is the USSR when you need one :)
- digikata 13y agoIt will be an interesting contrast to see if Ireland is equally willing to shelter live persons as well as they do corporations.
- lambersley 13y agoI really don't understand the public outcry. In the eyes of all that matters, he broke the law. Snowden knew where he signed up to work. Noone with any amount of brain processing capability would be so naive as to think that sort of stuff wasn't happening via the NSA. I have worked for organizations that when I categorically disagreed with their business model and operating processes, I left. He had that choice. It was certainly not his job to hold the Agency accountable. His chosen method was certainly not the acceptable protocol. In fact, its highly illegal. This does not mean that I agree with the US or any Gov't for that matter also breaking laws. EDIT: "Why shouldn't I work for the NSA?" - Good Will Hunting, 1997 http://goo.gl/hjMHg http://goo.gl/hjMHg