6 ms·

Bolivian Leader's Plane Rerouted on Snowden Fear

96 points by boi_v2 13y ago

tszyn 13y ago
It's terrifying how far European "leaders" are willing to go to suck up to the US Government.
- icebraining 13y ago
  Oh, our governments here in Portugal never needed much to suck up to everyone else. The US, Britain, Germany, Angola, Gaddafi's Libya, you name it - they say jump, we ask "how high?" During the Azores summit, while Bush, Blair and Aznar discussed the Iraq invasion, our PM (Barroso - yeah, the guy from the EU) was more than happy to be their busboy and serve drinks while the Great Leaders talked.
  - cpursley 13y ago
    Remind me of some classic RATM Bullet In The Head lyrics: Just victims of the in-house drive-by They say jump, you say how high Just victims of the in-house drive-by They say jump, you say how high... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkIXPSWjmsk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkIXPSWjmsk
koops 13y ago
Apparently the US government is trying to see just how craven and vindictive it can be. As Snowden says, they want to intimidate the next leaker.
qwertzlcoatl 13y ago
The ability of the US government to bend other governments in a certain direction, is like a leak in and of itself, as I surely did not expect so many governments, including mine in germany, to be this intimidated by the US powerhouse.
- barry-cotter 13y ago
  I read a Crooked Timber thread recently comparing the US's treatment of Latin America to the Soviet Union's treatment of the Warsaw Pact. The world made slightly more sense after that. The US is intimidating. It has made all non-democratic forms of government illegitimate by waging wars of extermination against them, it is a quarter of the world economy by itself, its military black budget is almost certainly larger than anyone else's open budget and its open budget is greater than the rest of the world's military budget summed. The US is the global hegemon. Russia, China and maybe Iran are independent of it. The US does not truly view the rest of the world as sovereigns but as subjects.
  - WildUtah 13y ago
    It has made all non-democratic forms of government illegitimate by waging wars of extermination against them I agree with a lot of your post, but it wasn't anything the US government did that made all non-democratic forms of government illegitimate. They have all been illegitimate since the very first time a gang of stronger men beat and killed a weaker one just because they could.
    - mindslight 13y ago
      But when the beating is instead performed by a large gang of weak men, it's legitimate?
    - jemfinch 13y ago
      Except that democracy itself consists of a gang of more people beating up gangs of fewer people just because they can. It merely substitutes numbers for strength. Neither might nor popularity makes right.
    - barry-cotter 13y ago
      Illegitimate as in outside the bounds of polite society's discourse, not as in something you abhor.
  - gaadd33 13y ago
dil8 13y ago
I am really surprised at how great the gap has become between the US Government's rhetoric and actual policy on human rights, foreign policy and government transparency. I just hope that Americans realise this and demand change sooner than later.
- cpursley 13y ago
  Don't count on it. Xyz show or game is on...
- chao- 13y ago
  I completely agree, so please take this as an explanation and elucidation rather than a criticism: The concept of merely "demanding change" is unlikely to result in change, unless the term "demanding" includes actions that would result in significant disruption of economics and daily life (in which case that is an entirely different discussion). The core piece in dampening a desire for change, in my thinking anyway, is the two-party system. Both parties are complicit and supportive of all this nonsense by an overwhelming internal majority. Outliers who join third parties are historically unsuccessful and outliers as candidates within the Democratic and Republican parties are rare. Even if you are lucky enough to have the chance to vote for someone radically pro-transparency or pro-privacy in federal election, the following still apply: 1. They are likely new, and years away from being in a leadership position of an important committee (where real accountability and change might begin). 2. They often fall into line over time. If they buck the party too often, too publicly and on too central of an issue, it is possible that the party will support them less in future national elections. 3. Any legislation they introduce, if acceptable at all, might well be diluted by amendments and through the committee process. Our congress appears slow and deadlocked because, it is in some ways designed to be. That is not me saying I agree with that design decision, but again just shining a light on the point. The two-party system is a barrier to expressing (electorally) desire for change beyond a certain delta from the status quo. A multi-party system, though it might be fraught with other issues, would go some distance toward representing more varied sets of concerns.
  - dil8 13y ago
    I completely agree... It has almost become impossible to 'demand change' from within the system, unless off course the change is within the acceptable norms.
TillE 13y ago
Can anyone think of another time this has ever happened? Two countries denying airspace to an official transport from a third country with no existing war or conflict involved? Bonus points if the head of state is onboard, but I'll accept other examples with only lesser officials involved. It's absolutely shocking.
- mcphilip 13y ago
  Portugal is a mess recently with several cabinet members resigning, including a key figure overseeing the implementation of terms agreed to in its bailout by the EU. I can see Portugal being in a particularly compliant mood at the moment in order to build good will with those that may have to help bail it out again. But France? What could possibly be the motive other than bending to pressure from the US?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - mark_l_watson 13y ago
    The NSA/US government probably has lots of dirt on politicians in these countries, and are applying it. Democracies are not so much democracies when the NSA can blackmail local politicians. I personally believe that this is the whole point of our large scale sweep of "everyone" surveillance, no matter how innocent they are.
    - ims 13y ago
      That could be it. Or the United States could be applying the typical measures of pressure in the diplomatic toolbox, consisting largely of economic incentives, concessions that meet other countries' policy goals, and appeals to mutual interest. You know, the standard tools of statecraft that have barely changed since the Congress of Vienna. You decide which seems more plausible.
      - mark_l_watson 13y ago
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
mpyne 13y ago
Possibly was an actual plane malfunction according to another comment on HN (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5981267 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5981267) Radio exchange at http://audioboo.fm/boos/1482009-bolivia-air-force-fuerza-aerea-boliviana-fab001-flight-precaution-landing-vienna-austria http://audioboo.fm/boos/1482009-bolivia-air-force-fuerza-aer...
- MisterWebz 13y ago
  And my comment on that same thread regarding the one who posted that link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5981395 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5981395
- vrepsys 13y ago
  According to The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d36aace4b0300b24e64d7f http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-a...): 1.05am BST Associated Press has published extracts from a statement issued by the Bolivian defence minister, Ruben Saavedra, who was also on the redirected plane. It says the plane was allowed to land in Spain for refueling before flying on to Austria. It describes the rerouting as a "hostile act" by the US goverment: This is a hostile act by the United States State Department which has used various European governments"
  - mpyne 13y ago
    I get that the defense minister was saying the plane was re-routed because of Snowden... but the pilot seemed to indicate it was a fuel indication issue. Would he be in on the conspiracy? Is this transcript from a different flight perhaps? I don't know what went on exactly but all that re-routing a plane with Snowden on it does for the U.S. is... nothing, really. It's not like they're going to stop them from going to Bolivia, and some kind of blackbag shenanigans while the plane refuels on the runway would lead to much more international outcry than I think either Obama or Kerry would want to accept. Even if we assume some kind of Darth Obama type nonsense I just don't see where this would have any upside for the U.S., which makes it seem a little implausible... even Obama has to be smarter than that. Edit: As far as the transcript the possibility would make sense if it was a charter flight and not a Bolivian aircrew. It would still be quite insane for the U.S. to ask for that or any of the countries to participate though.
rumbler 13y ago
That's certainly a good way for Snowden to see where his friends and his enemies are, and at the same time expose to the world how much leverage the US has with many countries.
mark_l_watson 13y ago
I love my country (USA) but I feel like like we are on such a stupid path. I get the "make the rich people a lot richer" thing, but we need to get our act together and do it quickly. I think that Snowden is screwed, but he has given us a chance, very small chance, to get our act together and bow out of this Empire thing.
- embolism 13y ago
  A good idea. It's time for someone else to have a turn. How about Putin? He has 10 years left in his term and knows a thing or two about espionage. Maybe the communist party of China - perhaps they could persuade us to adopt tougher internal policing.
airesQ 13y ago
The Portuguese authorities allowed ~150 CIA flights carrying "al-quaeda sympathizers" to Guantanamo (and other places) [1]. Now they deny right-of-passage to a flight carrying the president of Bolivia. Because? Well, you know, doing otherwise would upset the American authorities. It's realpolitik. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition#Portugal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition#Portug...

96 points by boi_v2 13y ago

tszyn 13y ago

It's terrifying how far European "leaders" are willing to go to suck up to the US Government.

icebraining 13y ago
Oh, our governments here in Portugal never needed much to suck up to everyone else. The US, Britain, Germany, Angola, Gaddafi's Libya, you name it - they say jump, we ask "how high?" During the Azores summit, while Bush, Blair and Aznar discussed the Iraq invasion, our PM (Barroso - yeah, the guy from the EU) was more than happy to be their busboy and serve drinks while the Great Leaders talked.
- cpursley 13y ago
  Remind me of some classic RATM Bullet In The Head lyrics: Just victims of the in-house drive-by They say jump, you say how high Just victims of the in-house drive-by They say jump, you say how high... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkIXPSWjmsk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkIXPSWjmsk

koops 13y ago

Apparently the US government is trying to see just how craven and vindictive it can be. As Snowden says, they want to intimidate the next leaker.

qwertzlcoatl 13y ago

The ability of the US government to bend other governments in a certain direction, is like a leak in and of itself, as I surely did not expect so many governments, including mine in germany, to be this intimidated by the US powerhouse.

barry-cotter 13y ago
I read a Crooked Timber thread recently comparing the US's treatment of Latin America to the Soviet Union's treatment of the Warsaw Pact. The world made slightly more sense after that. The US is intimidating. It has made all non-democratic forms of government illegitimate by waging wars of extermination against them, it is a quarter of the world economy by itself, its military black budget is almost certainly larger than anyone else's open budget and its open budget is greater than the rest of the world's military budget summed. The US is the global hegemon. Russia, China and maybe Iran are independent of it. The US does not truly view the rest of the world as sovereigns but as subjects.
- WildUtah 13y ago
  It has made all non-democratic forms of government illegitimate by waging wars of extermination against them I agree with a lot of your post, but it wasn't anything the US government did that made all non-democratic forms of government illegitimate. They have all been illegitimate since the very first time a gang of stronger men beat and killed a weaker one just because they could.
  - mindslight 13y ago
    But when the beating is instead performed by a large gang of weak men, it's legitimate?
  - jemfinch 13y ago
    Except that democracy itself consists of a gang of more people beating up gangs of fewer people just because they can. It merely substitutes numbers for strength. Neither might nor popularity makes right.
  - barry-cotter 13y ago
    Illegitimate as in outside the bounds of polite society's discourse, not as in something you abhor.
- gaadd33 13y ago

dil8 13y ago

I am really surprised at how great the gap has become between the US Government's rhetoric and actual policy on human rights, foreign policy and government transparency. I just hope that Americans realise this and demand change sooner than later.

cpursley 13y ago
Don't count on it. Xyz show or game is on...
chao- 13y ago
I completely agree, so please take this as an explanation and elucidation rather than a criticism: The concept of merely "demanding change" is unlikely to result in change, unless the term "demanding" includes actions that would result in significant disruption of economics and daily life (in which case that is an entirely different discussion). The core piece in dampening a desire for change, in my thinking anyway, is the two-party system. Both parties are complicit and supportive of all this nonsense by an overwhelming internal majority. Outliers who join third parties are historically unsuccessful and outliers as candidates within the Democratic and Republican parties are rare. Even if you are lucky enough to have the chance to vote for someone radically pro-transparency or pro-privacy in federal election, the following still apply: 1. They are likely new, and years away from being in a leadership position of an important committee (where real accountability and change might begin). 2. They often fall into line over time. If they buck the party too often, too publicly and on too central of an issue, it is possible that the party will support them less in future national elections. 3. Any legislation they introduce, if acceptable at all, might well be diluted by amendments and through the committee process. Our congress appears slow and deadlocked because, it is in some ways designed to be. That is not me saying I agree with that design decision, but again just shining a light on the point. The two-party system is a barrier to expressing (electorally) desire for change beyond a certain delta from the status quo. A multi-party system, though it might be fraught with other issues, would go some distance toward representing more varied sets of concerns.
- dil8 13y ago
  I completely agree... It has almost become impossible to 'demand change' from within the system, unless off course the change is within the acceptable norms.

TillE 13y ago

Can anyone think of another time this has ever happened? Two countries denying airspace to an official transport from a third country with no existing war or conflict involved? Bonus points if the head of state is onboard, but I'll accept other examples with only lesser officials involved. It's absolutely shocking.

mcphilip 13y ago
Portugal is a mess recently with several cabinet members resigning, including a key figure overseeing the implementation of terms agreed to in its bailout by the EU. I can see Portugal being in a particularly compliant mood at the moment in order to build good will with those that may have to help bail it out again. But France? What could possibly be the motive other than bending to pressure from the US?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- mark_l_watson 13y ago
  The NSA/US government probably has lots of dirt on politicians in these countries, and are applying it. Democracies are not so much democracies when the NSA can blackmail local politicians. I personally believe that this is the whole point of our large scale sweep of "everyone" surveillance, no matter how innocent they are.
  - ims 13y ago
    That could be it. Or the United States could be applying the typical measures of pressure in the diplomatic toolbox, consisting largely of economic incentives, concessions that meet other countries' policy goals, and appeals to mutual interest. You know, the standard tools of statecraft that have barely changed since the Congress of Vienna. You decide which seems more plausible.
    - mark_l_watson 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

mpyne 13y ago

Possibly was an actual plane malfunction according to another comment on HN (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5981267 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5981267) Radio exchange at http://audioboo.fm/boos/1482009-bolivia-air-force-fuerza-aerea-boliviana-fab001-flight-precaution-landing-vienna-austria http://audioboo.fm/boos/1482009-bolivia-air-force-fuerza-aer...

MisterWebz 13y ago
And my comment on that same thread regarding the one who posted that link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5981395 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5981395
vrepsys 13y ago
According to The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live#block-51d36aace4b0300b24e64d7f http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-a...): 1.05am BST Associated Press has published extracts from a statement issued by the Bolivian defence minister, Ruben Saavedra, who was also on the redirected plane. It says the plane was allowed to land in Spain for refueling before flying on to Austria. It describes the rerouting as a "hostile act" by the US goverment: This is a hostile act by the United States State Department which has used various European governments"
- mpyne 13y ago
  I get that the defense minister was saying the plane was re-routed because of Snowden... but the pilot seemed to indicate it was a fuel indication issue. Would he be in on the conspiracy? Is this transcript from a different flight perhaps? I don't know what went on exactly but all that re-routing a plane with Snowden on it does for the U.S. is... nothing, really. It's not like they're going to stop them from going to Bolivia, and some kind of blackbag shenanigans while the plane refuels on the runway would lead to much more international outcry than I think either Obama or Kerry would want to accept. Even if we assume some kind of Darth Obama type nonsense I just don't see where this would have any upside for the U.S., which makes it seem a little implausible... even Obama has to be smarter than that. Edit: As far as the transcript the possibility would make sense if it was a charter flight and not a Bolivian aircrew. It would still be quite insane for the U.S. to ask for that or any of the countries to participate though.

rumbler 13y ago

That's certainly a good way for Snowden to see where his friends and his enemies are, and at the same time expose to the world how much leverage the US has with many countries.

mark_l_watson 13y ago

I love my country (USA) but I feel like like we are on such a stupid path. I get the "make the rich people a lot richer" thing, but we need to get our act together and do it quickly. I think that Snowden is screwed, but he has given us a chance, very small chance, to get our act together and bow out of this Empire thing.

embolism 13y ago
A good idea. It's time for someone else to have a turn. How about Putin? He has 10 years left in his term and knows a thing or two about espionage. Maybe the communist party of China - perhaps they could persuade us to adopt tougher internal policing.

airesQ 13y ago

The Portuguese authorities allowed ~150 CIA flights carrying "al-quaeda sympathizers" to Guantanamo (and other places) [1]. Now they deny right-of-passage to a flight carrying the president of Bolivia. Because? Well, you know, doing otherwise would upset the American authorities. It's realpolitik. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition#Portugal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition#Portug...