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Wait... That's what I am paying my taxes for? That's where my money goes? I am NOT against Linux being more widely used. And I like the idea that the city uses

Wait... That's what I am paying my taxes for? That's where my money goes? I am NOT against Linux being more widely used. And I like the idea that the city uses Linux to save money & more efficient. But pushing citizens to use Linux is NOT government business

keithpeter 13y ago
"But pushing citizens to use Linux is NOT government business" Not sure where you are from, but in Europe/UK local governments do get involved in promoting what might be described as lifestyle choices. E.g. smoking cessation, getting more exercise, healthy eating, making recycled furniture available cheap to poor people by establishing and promoting 'social enterprises' as we call them in the uk. I see the free CDs as that really, just saying 'there is an alternative to chucking your old PC away, just try this and see if it is enough for you'. Not so much pushing linux from any political/anti-microsoft position, just saying you don't have to spend (more) money.
- mathnode 13y ago
  Yes. Less waste, and in theory users will be given more secure and up to date software experience, which should provide safety and confidence for online shopping, for more tasty taxable purchases. +1 for environment +1 for Capitalism EDIT: last +1 for education, and employment. No need to get a new fancy computer to do your homework or write a CV.
  - keithpeter 13y ago
    Not to mention reduction in costs for local and national government if people can fill in forms online as opposed to paper or going to an office...
    - skaevola 13y ago
      But that would require the local government to allow forms to be submitted online. Which mine hasn't :(
      - keithpeter 13y ago
        UK: big push to get 'open government' going and my local council has a big advertising campaign getting people to use their web pages. Not always online, some services mainly call centre based. I imagine this will vary widely by country
- sageikosa 13y ago
  The CDs may be free to the recipients, but they were not zero cost. The money to procure them came from somewhere.
  - keithpeter 13y ago
    Yes, of course. My local government spends quite a lot on marketing and publicising the social enterprises I mentioned in grandparent post. A few thousand CDs won't cost that much. Canonical themselves supply Ubuntu CDs for £80 per 100. I'd imagine it gets a lot cheaper per 1000. You can pay £900 to advertise a job in our local paper, and that is for a 10cm two column advert with two insertions. I had to pay £100 to move a piano not so long ago (specialist private mover).
  - v0lta 13y ago
    Of course not, but CDs are incredibly cheap if produced in great numbers. And as a German I can only agree with keithpeter. It's perfectly normal for local government to spend tax-money outside of "classic" duties to promote a public issue. Especially something with an environmental background. Something else you should keep in mind is, that Munich is pushing towards electronic bureaucracy, which would require access to a PC by everyone.
    - sageikosa 13y ago
      Perfectly normal is an observation of frequency of occurrence, and one I won't dispute. "hiddenfeatures" was complaining that this was (to paraphrase with words from your observation) "perfectly normal", which he found odd in that his tax money was promoting this, when he didn't see this as a government function. "keithpeter" referenced that in Europe/UK (and I will confirm that various jurisdictions in the US of A do so as well) local governments promote all sorts of pet social projects. At this point "keithpeter" referenced free CDs. That's when I pointed out the CDs were not free to produce which was "hiddenfeatures" point about tax money going to promote a product. Now, I'm not sure where "hiddenfeatures" is from, but I am from the US of A, and things like this do happen here as well, and some people don't like it for a variety of reasons. Constitutionalists, for instance can't find Linux promotion in any of the original Articles, nor in any Amendments. For me anytime I see even small amounts of money spent I compare it to what I've been taxed for the year and calculate how much of my money went to support the program. If its less than I have been taxed, I can claim to have completely funded the program, if it's more, then I can calculate how many years I had to work to completely fund this a program. If it's far more than I can be taxed in a lifetime, I try to calculate how many people like me will have all of their lifetime tax money poured into said program.
jabiko 13y ago
The intention of the city is not to push its citizens to use Linux. They just want you to install Linux instead of disposing your old PC because it's not capable of running a newer version of Windows than XP. Sources (German): - Original motion: http://www.ris-muenchen.de/RII2/RII/DOK/ANTRAG/2927956.pdf http://www.ris-muenchen.de/RII2/RII/DOK/ANTRAG/2927956.pdf - News article: http://www.heise.de/open/meldung/Muenchen-will-Windows-Aussteigern-Linux-CDs-schenken-1893593.html http://www.heise.de/open/meldung/Muenchen-will-Windows-Ausst...
velodrome 13y ago
An indirect benefit is teaching the younger generation to be more proficient with linux. Many of these old PCs can be used as hand-me-downs for young kids. Some of these kids will eventually work for the city and contribute to existing infrastructure. Also, let's not forget economies of scale (ie. labor, ecosystem, etc) to further reduce costs. Makes sense to me. Think of this as dogfooding.
- keithpeter 13y ago
  As I was reminded in another comment many Atom based 1Gb netbooks were sold with XP and a 160Gb hard drive. Such a machine can run ubuntustudio well, and allow a young person to do quite a lot with audio, images and some low-fi video.
muuh-gnu 13y ago
> But pushing citizens to use Linux is NOT government business Why not? The goverment standardizes everything else, from screws to seat belts to yogurts, why not stop the crazy update-planned-obsolescence cycle pushed by commercial entities and agree on a "standard UI" for normal people? The amount of unnecessary changes in UIs has become unbearably crazy. And since those changes are forced from all sides, there is no way to vote with your wallet. Whoever wants to constantly relearn the same stuff over and over and over, and today relearn the Ribbon, tomorrow Metro, and so on, is free to do it. But normal, everyday folks should not have to deal with this shit. Computers are supposed to be boring, everyday tools to accomplish everyday tasks, not fashion statements. If the commercial world is not willing or able to keep computers useful tools, the goverment has to step in and slow down the amount of changes and prevent the giant waste of tediously gathered know-how.
- skaevola 13y ago
  Most standards are not set by the government, they're set by professional organizations. See ANSI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_National_Standards_Institute http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_National_Standards_Ins... Safety standards ARE often set by the government, but more general standards mostly are not. By the way, the position you're arguing for is literally the opposite of innovation. Imagine if, after Apple unveiled the iPhone, the government had discouraged its adoption because it removed people's hard-won knowledge of using Motorola flip phones. I guess Motorola would have been happy!
  - muuh-gnu 13y ago
    > the position you're arguing for is literally the opposite of innovation. So what? I dont see any innovation here. It is haute couture like change for changes sake masqueraded as innovation. Computers have become too important tools to allow a few key players to enforce a crazy planned obsolescence cycle. > Imagine if, after Apple unveiled the iPhone I was not talking about toys.
  - coldarchon 13y ago
    What kind of constant innovation does a city council need? Do their computers need to become faster or their business structure? I think you really need to rethink your arguments because city councils need to make sure data is accessible for more time than the phase of a startup. Ever tried to use a database of ACCESS 95? Ever had to convert it to '97, 2000, 2003 and then 2007 so you could finally convert it to your actual version and use it? Because that's how it works with innovative non-governmental standards by Microsoft and Apple ..
Spooky23 13y ago
Windows 8 is cratering new PC adoption -- many people, especially folks who are not technically adept, hate it. So a German government decided to invest a small amount of money to help citizens utilize an alternative to insecure Windows XP.
- xradionut 13y ago
  Plenty of folks who are technically adept, dislike it as well.
  - venomsnake 13y ago
    It is terrible. Yesterday I had to go long ways to help a friend install skype on w8. The thing pushed her towards the metro version and microsoft account. So i had to find a direct link to desktop installer. Every non IT user I have seen hates 8. Most of the ITs too.

keithpeter 13y ago

"But pushing citizens to use Linux is NOT government business" Not sure where you are from, but in Europe/UK local governments do get involved in promoting what might be described as lifestyle choices. E.g. smoking cessation, getting more exercise, healthy eating, making recycled furniture available cheap to poor people by establishing and promoting 'social enterprises' as we call them in the uk. I see the free CDs as that really, just saying 'there is an alternative to chucking your old PC away, just try this and see if it is enough for you'. Not so much pushing linux from any political/anti-microsoft position, just saying you don't have to spend (more) money.

mathnode 13y ago
Yes. Less waste, and in theory users will be given more secure and up to date software experience, which should provide safety and confidence for online shopping, for more tasty taxable purchases. +1 for environment +1 for Capitalism EDIT: last +1 for education, and employment. No need to get a new fancy computer to do your homework or write a CV.
- keithpeter 13y ago
  Not to mention reduction in costs for local and national government if people can fill in forms online as opposed to paper or going to an office...
  - skaevola 13y ago
    But that would require the local government to allow forms to be submitted online. Which mine hasn't :(
    - keithpeter 13y ago
      UK: big push to get 'open government' going and my local council has a big advertising campaign getting people to use their web pages. Not always online, some services mainly call centre based. I imagine this will vary widely by country
sageikosa 13y ago
The CDs may be free to the recipients, but they were not zero cost. The money to procure them came from somewhere.
- keithpeter 13y ago
  Yes, of course. My local government spends quite a lot on marketing and publicising the social enterprises I mentioned in grandparent post. A few thousand CDs won't cost that much. Canonical themselves supply Ubuntu CDs for £80 per 100. I'd imagine it gets a lot cheaper per 1000. You can pay £900 to advertise a job in our local paper, and that is for a 10cm two column advert with two insertions. I had to pay £100 to move a piano not so long ago (specialist private mover).
- v0lta 13y ago
  Of course not, but CDs are incredibly cheap if produced in great numbers. And as a German I can only agree with keithpeter. It's perfectly normal for local government to spend tax-money outside of "classic" duties to promote a public issue. Especially something with an environmental background. Something else you should keep in mind is, that Munich is pushing towards electronic bureaucracy, which would require access to a PC by everyone.
  - sageikosa 13y ago
    Perfectly normal is an observation of frequency of occurrence, and one I won't dispute. "hiddenfeatures" was complaining that this was (to paraphrase with words from your observation) "perfectly normal", which he found odd in that his tax money was promoting this, when he didn't see this as a government function. "keithpeter" referenced that in Europe/UK (and I will confirm that various jurisdictions in the US of A do so as well) local governments promote all sorts of pet social projects. At this point "keithpeter" referenced free CDs. That's when I pointed out the CDs were not free to produce which was "hiddenfeatures" point about tax money going to promote a product. Now, I'm not sure where "hiddenfeatures" is from, but I am from the US of A, and things like this do happen here as well, and some people don't like it for a variety of reasons. Constitutionalists, for instance can't find Linux promotion in any of the original Articles, nor in any Amendments. For me anytime I see even small amounts of money spent I compare it to what I've been taxed for the year and calculate how much of my money went to support the program. If its less than I have been taxed, I can claim to have completely funded the program, if it's more, then I can calculate how many years I had to work to completely fund this a program. If it's far more than I can be taxed in a lifetime, I try to calculate how many people like me will have all of their lifetime tax money poured into said program.

jabiko 13y ago

The intention of the city is not to push its citizens to use Linux. They just want you to install Linux instead of disposing your old PC because it's not capable of running a newer version of Windows than XP. Sources (German): - Original motion: http://www.ris-muenchen.de/RII2/RII/DOK/ANTRAG/2927956.pdf http://www.ris-muenchen.de/RII2/RII/DOK/ANTRAG/2927956.pdf - News article: http://www.heise.de/open/meldung/Muenchen-will-Windows-Aussteigern-Linux-CDs-schenken-1893593.html http://www.heise.de/open/meldung/Muenchen-will-Windows-Ausst...

velodrome 13y ago

An indirect benefit is teaching the younger generation to be more proficient with linux. Many of these old PCs can be used as hand-me-downs for young kids. Some of these kids will eventually work for the city and contribute to existing infrastructure. Also, let's not forget economies of scale (ie. labor, ecosystem, etc) to further reduce costs. Makes sense to me. Think of this as dogfooding.

keithpeter 13y ago
As I was reminded in another comment many Atom based 1Gb netbooks were sold with XP and a 160Gb hard drive. Such a machine can run ubuntustudio well, and allow a young person to do quite a lot with audio, images and some low-fi video.

muuh-gnu 13y ago

> But pushing citizens to use Linux is NOT government business Why not? The goverment standardizes everything else, from screws to seat belts to yogurts, why not stop the crazy update-planned-obsolescence cycle pushed by commercial entities and agree on a "standard UI" for normal people? The amount of unnecessary changes in UIs has become unbearably crazy. And since those changes are forced from all sides, there is no way to vote with your wallet. Whoever wants to constantly relearn the same stuff over and over and over, and today relearn the Ribbon, tomorrow Metro, and so on, is free to do it. But normal, everyday folks should not have to deal with this shit. Computers are supposed to be boring, everyday tools to accomplish everyday tasks, not fashion statements. If the commercial world is not willing or able to keep computers useful tools, the goverment has to step in and slow down the amount of changes and prevent the giant waste of tediously gathered know-how.

skaevola 13y ago
Most standards are not set by the government, they're set by professional organizations. See ANSI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_National_Standards_Institute http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_National_Standards_Ins... Safety standards ARE often set by the government, but more general standards mostly are not. By the way, the position you're arguing for is literally the opposite of innovation. Imagine if, after Apple unveiled the iPhone, the government had discouraged its adoption because it removed people's hard-won knowledge of using Motorola flip phones. I guess Motorola would have been happy!
- muuh-gnu 13y ago
  > the position you're arguing for is literally the opposite of innovation. So what? I dont see any innovation here. It is haute couture like change for changes sake masqueraded as innovation. Computers have become too important tools to allow a few key players to enforce a crazy planned obsolescence cycle. > Imagine if, after Apple unveiled the iPhone I was not talking about toys.
- coldarchon 13y ago
  What kind of constant innovation does a city council need? Do their computers need to become faster or their business structure? I think you really need to rethink your arguments because city councils need to make sure data is accessible for more time than the phase of a startup. Ever tried to use a database of ACCESS 95? Ever had to convert it to '97, 2000, 2003 and then 2007 so you could finally convert it to your actual version and use it? Because that's how it works with innovative non-governmental standards by Microsoft and Apple ..

Spooky23 13y ago

Windows 8 is cratering new PC adoption -- many people, especially folks who are not technically adept, hate it. So a German government decided to invest a small amount of money to help citizens utilize an alternative to insecure Windows XP.

xradionut 13y ago
Plenty of folks who are technically adept, dislike it as well.
- venomsnake 13y ago
  It is terrible. Yesterday I had to go long ways to help a friend install skype on w8. The thing pushed her towards the metro version and microsoft account. So i had to find a direct link to desktop installer. Every non IT user I have seen hates 8. Most of the ITs too.