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My NSA Records - Submit a FOIA Request or Motion to Quash
- binarymax 13y agoDoes filing the FOIA make the information public to all? I would just quash if this is the case.
- tsaoutourpants 13y agoGood question! While I can't give legal advice, it is my understanding that the answer is NO! :)
- DuskStar 13y agoDoesn't a FOIA request have fees associated with it? Will the government just bill you for it when they provide documents?
- LoganCale 13y ago> There is no initial fee required to submit a FOIA request, but the FOIA does provide for the charging of certain types of fees in some instances. > For a typical requester the agency can charge for the time it takes to search for records and for duplication of those records. There is usually no charge for the first two hours of search time or for the first 100 pages of duplication. http://www.foia.gov/faq.html#cost http://www.foia.gov/faq.html#cost
- DuskStar 13y agoWell, no reason not to request my records then! Thanks!
- JDGM 13y ago"...the agency can charge for the time it takes to search for records and for duplication of those records" In the spirit of absurdist satirical works such as Brazil locally relevant in light of recent events, here's an immediate lunatic conspiracy theory: This whole Snowden leak business is an elaborate and wholly orchestrated "make work" scheme to boost the economy by flooding "the agency" with requests for records. In three months four out of every five Americans will be hired in this line of work. Brilliant, government economists, simply brilliant!
- ctdonath 13y agoConsidering that everything alleged has been announced, confirmed, discussed, and documented for years past (Patriot Act, ECHLON, hoovering all international communications, etc.) I'm wondering why all this, now, is garnering such outrage. The idea's time, I suppose...
- LoganCale 13y agoThere's been outrage in the past, but it's generally been limited to the tech community and didn't last long because it dropped out of the news quickly. This time the government openly acknowledged the mass collection of everyone's phone records without probable cause, and continued media coverage has allowed it to build momentum. I think many people have been very upset about it for a long time, but everyone else seemed to show apathy so they did too, because if no one else seems upset, it's hard to feel like anything can ever get done about it. When everyone is angry, there's more chance of getting something done.
- outside1234 13y ago"You may request a waiver of fees. Under the FOIA fee waivers are limited to situations in which a requester can show that the disclosure of the requested information is in the public interest because it is likely to contribute significantly to public understanding of the operations and activities of the government and is not primarily in the commercial interest of the requester." Sounds like that applies to most everyone to me!
- tsaoutourpants 13y agoAdded in a fee waiver request to the form!
- tsaoutourpants 13y agoAlso, regarding fees, I really don't expect that the NSA is going to respond to your FOIA request without a fight, so I personally think it's a non-issue. The idea here is the protest, not an expectation that you'll actually get your records!
- kgo 13y agoTechnically you want to submit a Privacy Act request to get records on yourself which is different than an FOIA request. But the NSA will just deny the request with a form letter.
- tsaoutourpants 13y agoThe form you fill out says under both FOIA & PA. :) I got you covered. ;)
- alan_cx 13y agoOnly Americans? Or can the rest of us yet to be proven not terrorists apply too?
- doki_pen 13y agoYou bring up a good point. It's common knowledge that most countries have laws about spying on their own citizens, but not citizens of other nations. Furthermore, global intelligence organizations freely share intelligence. They have been using this "loophole" to effectively spy on their own citizens by proxy. It seems that it's in the best interest of all citizens of the world to form some sort of treaty that says they want spy on each other without due process. It's seems pretty counter intuitive that my own government would encourage, and even assist another government to spy on me. Isn't the main purpose of the government, the reason that I let the government exist in the first place, to protect me from foreign threats. Certainly another country spying on me is a threat worth protecting from.
- tsaoutourpants 13y agoAlthough I'll only be mailing requests with US addresses, you can certainly take the form from the site and mail your own. I encourage it!
- dsl 13y agoIf you are not American, our laws apply to you, but not our rights. So you are out of luck if you want to file a FOIA.
- iamdave 13y agoIf you are not American, our laws apply to you Huh?? Even if someone is physically not in the US? Have I misunderstood something for a very long time?
- GoodIntentions 13y agohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Emery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Emery There are other examples. This is the one that came to mind most readily. I don't smoke up. I don't support Marc Emery. I was however, ashamed at how nut-less my government was in handing him over.
- trebor 13y agoCould somebody explain the Motion to Quash who has an understanding of it? I thought it only applied to a subpoena, and so would not apply without one.
- DuskStar 13y agoI don't have a full understanding of it, but I think a Motion to Quash basically asks the court to say "This information was collected illegally or outside the investigative scope, and you may not use it as evidence (and thus must destroy it)"
- doki_pen 13y agoIt seems like the distinction that the NSA is trying to make is that, it's not illegal to possess the data, only to look at it. That argument may even extend to automatic processes that aren't seen by human eyes, who knows. If you happen to get a warrant in the future, you'll be able to "travel back in time" to see all communications of the person in question. The most maddening part of all this is that no one outside the government is even allowed to know the rules.
- tsaoutourpants 13y agoCorrect that this appears to be their argument, but that argument holds not a chance. Imagine if police searched houses randomly but "weren't allowed to use what they found unless they got a warrant." I believe this argument will be squarely and unanimously rejected by SCOTUS.
- dragonwriter 13y ago> Imagine if police searched houses randomly but "weren't allowed to use what they found unless they got a warrant." The main remedy for illegal police searches is exclusion of the evidence if, and when, the government attempts to use it in court (and then, usually, only if they attempt to use it against the specific person whose rights were violated by the search, and not always even then [e.g., good faith exception, and other exceptions to the exclusionary rule].)
- GabrielF00 13y agoOf course if they don't have a file on you, and you send them a FOIA request, they may open up a file on you just for the purposes of handling your request...
- ck2 13y agoSince their logic is you cannot be safe unless they know everything about you - they most likely have a file on every human being in the USA, maybe a large majority of the planet.
- tsaoutourpants 13y agohaha don't worry, they have a file on you ;)
- jlgreco 13y agoThat is why after your first FOIA request you send another FOIA request that requests all correspondence and documents generated as a result of your first. Rinse and repeat until you find an attractor. ;)
- dbecker 13y agoI wouldn't rule out the possiblity that your participation in a thread about this is in your file.
- nzealand 13y agoThere are nine exemptions to the FOIA (that we know of) http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/foia/ http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/foia/
- nzealand 13y agoAnd they are fairly broad http://www.sec.gov/foia/nfoia.htm http://www.sec.gov/foia/nfoia.htm
- RexM 13y agoThat's not including secret/classified interpretations of the exemptions.
- tsaoutourpants 13y agoI'm not sure any of them apply anymore. The government's best argument is probably, "Just because their existence was disclosed doesn't mean it's not still classified!" But, I've seen that argument before in court cases, and IIRC, a court ruled that if the disclosure is reliable enough such that everyone knows it's true and therefore it's obviously not a secret, the docs must be released.
- elmuchoprez 13y agoIs this legit? It kind of feels like those old scam ads that would say, "Has your credit card number been stolen? Enter here to find out!". Why, especially in the light of recent privacy concerns, would I just hand over my full name, address and phone number and allow someone I have no relationship with mail a legal document on my behalf?
- tsaoutourpants 13y agoHello, creator of the Web site here. You can click through the contact page to find out more about me, but I've been fighting government invasion of privacy for several years now. I was the top story on HN for about 3 days last year when I posted a video of me beating TSA nude bdy scanners. I want nothing more than to send the NSA and FISA court a million requests for info! :)
- stfu 13y agoGreat work, I remember the TSA scanner story! Just a thought: Maybe you could change the buttons to look less 2000'ish. That might give off a bit of an odd vibe ;)
- tsaoutourpants 13y agoThank you!! Help create new awesome buttons and I'll use them! :)
- grey-area 13y agoTry something like this perhaps: <a href="/retrieve/" class="button retrieve">Retrieve</a> <style type="text/css" media="screen"> .button { font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; text-decoration:none; color:#fff; background-color:green; margin:1em; padding:0.5em 1em; font-size:2em; text-transform:uppercase; letter-spacing:0.1em; } </style> http://jsfiddle.net/zdYbM/ http://jsfiddle.net/zdYbM/
- just2n 13y agoThe secrecy of the information FOIA is supposed to help alleviate (it doesn't really because it's a catch-22) bothers me a lot. If the government is amassing information on individuals to prove guilt of some crime, by withholding that information from counsel, it's very possible that evidence that proves the individual is completely innocent may be destroyed inadvertently since the individual has no idea what they might be someday accused of.
- tsaoutourpants 13y agoThere are tons of problems with the NSA having this data, and I think they are just beginning to learn that. There's a news headline out there now that a bank robbery suspect has now requested his NSA records to prove he wasn't there. The shit is about to hit the fan (or "additional shit" I should say!) Of course, you could always keep a copy of every phone bill you receive if you want permanent proof of what you were up to.
- genwin 13y agoYour phone bill doesn't tell you your minute-by-minute location. That what the bank robbery suspect wants evidence for.
- chris_mahan 13y agoYou'd have to prove that it was you talking on the phone. You'd need a recording of the conversation for the judge to be sure.
- hamsoken 13y agoRegarding the motion to quash, it seems as though it would be rejected outright by the court clerk since you're not filing it in person and I'm guessing there is a motion fee to file with the court. I am a lawyer and would be interested in helping you make this more effective, if you are interested.
- tsaoutourpants 13y agoWould certainly be up for your input -> jon [at] professional-troublemaker.com . I don't believe the FISA court has established filing fees, simply because they typically only get requests from the government. Their rules: http://www.uscourts.gov/uscourts/rules/FISC2010.pdf http://www.uscourts.gov/uscourts/rules/FISC2010.pdf
- tjohns 13y agoI find it ironic that that the "quash" option on the site doesn't tell you the address that will be used for mailing your request to the FISA court. It would be nice if the site published instructions on submitting these requests yourself. On a related note, I'd love to know: 1. How does one typically file a motion with the FISA court, given that they don't have a website or any public contact information that I can find? 2. What's the probability of these "quash" requests even being considered, given that nobody other than the USG is technically party to the case?
- tsaoutourpants 13y ago1) FISA court rules, including how to file a motion: http://www.uscourts.gov/uscourts/rules/FISC2010.pdf http://www.uscourts.gov/uscourts/rules/FISC2010.pdf 2) Probably slim, but again, it's a matter of petitioning your government for redress -- a protest. You certainly have "standing," so I don't imagine the reason will be that you're "not a party," but they'll likely find some reason to deny them.
- tsaoutourpants 13y agoBefore I put up MyNSARecords, I was curious as to whether more people would want a copy or want them deleted. Thought you might find it interesting: the "want a copy" crowd outnumbers the "delete" crowd by about 4 to 1.
- siphor 13y agoMakes sense to me =) I just asked for a copy. I want to know what they are tracking and how fully, also a Freedom of Information Act sounds like they are more likely to comply than to Quash it. Of course, I would like to have it deleted after I get my copy...
- tsaoutourpants 13y agoThere should be nothing in the way of requesting both, I suppose. You could write the NSA and the FISC a motion to provide a copy and then destroy. shrugs
- dbecker 13y agoI'd like to see more my whole file instead of just the phone records, because I'm curious how accurate their information is.
- tsaoutourpants 13y agoThe problem is that they'll say what they collect in your "whole file" (if such a thing exists) is a national security secret. This whole retrieval of phone records by FOIA is (remotely) possible because they can no longer claim those records are secret. Also, NSA likely doesn't have too much of a file on you. FBI, CIA, DHS, on the other hand...
- jjsz 13y agoCan't I just give them my name, and my Google Voice number, and in return get all the information they have on me or will they only give me the information they have on my Google Voice number?
- tsaoutourpants 13y agoYou need to provide an address for them to send you the information. :)
- mtgx 13y agoYou should submit it to a few subreddits, too.
- tsaoutourpants 13y agoI did, but Reddit has a nasty habit of deleting my posts, generally silently (so it looks to me like they're still there but no one else can see). I was actually silent banned from Reddit for a year by an automatic spam filter's mistake. Really sucks. You all can feel free to try on my behalf tho! Perhaps you have a more established account.
- rallison 13y agoNote that you can also submit a request directly on the NSA's FOIA page: http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/foia/submit_foia_request/foia_request_form.shtml http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/foia/submit_foia_request/foia...
- tsaoutourpants 13y agoYou could, but I like the idea of them having to deal with a paper copy! :)
- alanh 13y agoIMO, you should state this possibility and your own sentiment directly on your website. Let the people decide!
- nextstep 13y agoThis is awesome. Whoever did this a should add a bitcoin address for donations.
- tsaoutourpants 13y agoOn my to-do list for tomorrow!